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  1. Styygens is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:13am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    i mean long solo kata's as in TKD.also I don't believe the "if it works on armour it works without part", just seems too slow and the combinations aren't natural.
    It's becoming increasingly obvious that you need to expand your general knowledge of traditional Japanese Martial Arts. That's fine, and I'll try to be nice. Long solo forms were not the norm in Japanese Martial Arts prior to the introduction and assimiliation of Karate. Two-person forms were the most common kata. Booj has hundreds of kata; and that's just what I have in my notes. Just when I think I've seen nearly everything, it seems dozens more pop-up.

    Booj isn't the only "jujutsu" that derives from armored techniques. Many jujutsu ryuha transitioned from armored techniques to unarmed, unencumbered techniques. Some are just as stiff and awkward as Booj, others managed to smooth it all out, or relegate the armored portion of the curriculum to a ritual status. I'd need to consult my library, but I do believe there is a set of Judo kata that is derived from armored techniques.


    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    that's what I meant at the start of this thread. There is some "resistance" in the techniques by uke, mainly muscle tension or adapting position, an occasional slap but it's all too passive.
    at the same time a lot of teachers emphasize improvisation more than the combination katas, but the entire scheme seems too far off. we've also been experimenting with more modern punches etc but then it all seems to break down a bit.
    The resistance you're describing is not much better than purely compliant training. Compliance and moderate resistance are important parts of teaching proper technique to a beginner, but training must transition to a fully resisting opponent for the student to learn actual application.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "improvisation" in this context. If you mean "henka" or a variation from the standard kata, that is still compliant training. If you mean that the uke abandons the kata at some point, well, now we're getting closer to resistant training.

    This explains the concept of Aliveness better than I can:


    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    there's not that much koto in the main program when you look at it, more at seminars etc.
    Interesting, given the natural relationship between Gyokko and Koto Ryu theory... There is, of course, no set global curriculum in the Booj. My experience has been that Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu are taught more-or-less together as the basis for unarmed techniques. Kukishin is taught for weapon techniques until the higher levels.

    Which merely brings me to the point that the Booj is very much like the elephant in the story about the elephant and the blind men. So you (and I) need to be careful about extrapolating too much about the entire Booj organization based on a sliver of experience.


    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken

  2. dflanmod is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:18am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post


    You do know that you lose this rap battle if you have to resort to ethnic stereotypes, right? Because you're heading that way.
    Like this hedge???
    http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_u...?v=5Ns-kXeQCMk
  3. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:35am


     Style: Striking, grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    informative, thanks.
    derived is fine, I'm aware of this, but there has to be some deriving done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    If you mean that the uke abandons the kata at some point, well, now we're getting closer to resistant training.
    I mean this, but it doesn't go much further than that. It's also a bit of a social issue. I had a training partner of about the same level I could push, which was cool, get out of the normal routine. Unfortunately he's not available anymore.

    with the main program I mean tenchijin, which contains some koto, but a whole lot of gyokko, if I'm not mistaken, I'm no expert.

    anyway, did you alter training methods in some way to some result?
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    I'd need to consult my library, but I do believe there is a set of Judo kata that is derived from armored techniques.
    Koshiki no kata.

    Still occasionally performed wearing armour.

  5. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:48am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    ... and the outfit, well it would go well with savate's :/
    Do not ever disrespects a Combat Sport that can make you eat a shoe!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  6. Styygens is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:55am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    informative, thanks.
    derived is fine, I'm aware of this, but there has to be some deriving done.


    I mean this, but it doesn't go much further than that. It's also a bit of a social issue. I had a training partner of about the same level I could push, which was cool, get out of the normal routine. Unfortunately he's not available anymore.

    with the main program I mean tenchijin, which contains some koto, but a whole lot of gyokko, if I'm not mistaken, I'm no expert.

    anyway, did you alter training methods in some way to some result?
    OK, Tenchijin no Maki (TCJNM) is about as close as it comes to a standardized curriculum, but even that is meant for the teacher to use as a "guide" not a rigid lesson plan. It pulls from all of the ryuha, but yes, there is a lot of Gyokko Ryu in there.

    You've asked an excellent question about alteration of training methods.

    I am a senior student at my Booj class. I have some slight influence, but not any real control, over the teaching. I am occassionally allowed to teach a class. I have pushed, prodded, and cajoled to alter the training -- it's slow.

    The main change came when the Booj head instructor picked up BJJ as a side-interest. He immediately realized the first problem was fitness and sought to fix that with us. Then he schooled us with his blue belt skills. Since then, all the instructors and the senior students have gone on to earn blue belts in BJJ. The school solution was to add BJJ to the curriculum. Now we have a core group at Blue Belt level in BJJ, and any students not taking pure BJJ classes are getting crappling instruction during regular classes.

    There are serious growing pains here. I can see that the instructors are busy reinventing the wheel, and due to the investment of time and effort in the Booj -- and also the relationships they have built -- they are not willing to make all the necessary changes. They think BJJ can simply be added to BBT when that's not exactly the case. As Shinbushi pointed out, there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

    My personal training has changed. I spend far more time per week in BJJ and my Contemporary Jeet Kune Do (JKD) classes and training than I do with Booj. If you want to know why I stay at all, it is primarily because I really enjoy the people in my Booj class. As I explore other arts, I have yet to find anything that wasn't touched on in Booj; so for me (and YMMV) Booj has provided an excellent background in theory. But it does not produce skill in the same way an Alive art can.


    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken

  7. hpr is offline
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    Knock-off Cthulhu

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 10:09am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    But those 20 guys in the Booj class in their 20's are probably all Otaku.
    Probably. But at least most of them weren't morbidly obese or anything. Unfortunately since judo has none of that martial arts mystique surrounding it (it being an olympic sport and all) none of them will ever even think about trying it. Sucks for them though. Throwing and positionally dominating/submitting fully resisting people is awesome.
    Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.
  8. Lebell is offline
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    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 10:21am

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    if you don't care, don't post. so tell me, is this board for all ma's except bujinkan? that's bs.
    also tell me then how I'm able to participate if one of the arts I train in is bujinkan.
    in my book booj isnt even a martial art.

    people who play ninja or aikidoka are like that one special kid we all used to know.
    if you'd get ready to go with your group of friends and do some bmx-xrossing this kid comes along with a trycicle and a special flag on it and says: ' lolol hai guiz, mind if i tag along?'

    and then you and your friends go like: dude, gtfo, you're getting nowhere on that trycicle, get a proper bmx bike frist.

    and then the special kid says: ' zomg! im telling my mom!'

    and then his mom comes and you go like: oh **** there we have it..
    and then his mom says: you rotten asshole kids, you know dam well he's sensitive and special, now we're not going to buy him a bmx, his trycicle is just fine to cross with, now you will play with him or im going to your parents!!!'

    you're kinda like the mom in this story.
  9. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 10:34am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    The main change came when the Booj head instructor picked up BJJ as a side-interest. He immediately realized the first problem was fitness and sought to fix that with us. Then he schooled us with his blue belt skills. Since then, all the instructors and the senior students have gone on to earn blue belts in BJJ. The school solution was to add BJJ to the curriculum. Now we have a core group at Blue Belt level in BJJ, and any students not taking pure BJJ classes are getting crappling instruction during regular classes.

    There are serious growing pains here. I can see that the instructors are busy reinventing the wheel, and due to the investment of time and effort in the Booj -- and also the relationships they have built -- they are not willing to make all the necessary changes. They think BJJ can simply be added to BBT when that's not exactly the case. As Shinbushi pointed out, there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

    My personal training has changed. I spend far more time per week in BJJ and my Contemporary Jeet Kune Do (JKD) classes and training than I do with Booj. If you want to know why I stay at all, it is primarily because I really enjoy the people in my Booj class. As I explore other arts, I have yet to find anything that wasn't touched on in Booj; so for me (and YMMV) Booj has provided an excellent background in theory. But it does not produce skill in the same way an Alive art can.
    This is an excellent anecdote from a senior person in your art. You should read twice Ashkelon.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  10. omoplatypus is offline
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    Merry Christmas! shitter's full...

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 10:37am

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     Style: BJJ/Judo

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    lebell: will you be my daddy?
    --------

    Quote Originally Posted by it is fake View Post
    yeah, normally i'd get a quote, but couldn't be bothered.
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