Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    13
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Concerns with Submission Wrestling/ Pankration

    I'd like to preface this post by saying that I am extremely new to MMA, and so if I post anything that comes off as trollish or trying to start a fight, I assure you I am not, and it's just my own ignorance.

    I recently started training MMA at AMC Pankration, and while there is no doubt that this place is legit, I'm wondering if this is the best place for a beginner such as my self. I've gone to several of their Submission Wrestling classes, and I'm a little worried. While I've learned a few submissions, and a couple variations of side control, I haven't learned how to defend or escape from any submissions. I also wasn't ever shown how to properly guard (I basically just looked at what the other students were doing and tried to mimic that as best I could). Now this could be my own ignorance talking here, but this seems strange. I would think that learning how to defend your self and escape from submissions and holds would be the first thing a beginner should learn, because from a self defense stand point it makes sense to me that it would be better to learn how to escape from an attacker rather than trying to clumsily apply an armbar or something.

    Another aspect that seems odd to me, is that each time I've gone to a class, I've learned and focused on something new. For example one day we learned how to go from side control to mount, to an armbar, and then the next day we worked on a bunch of leg submissions. Again I could be totally wrong here, but isn't it a better idea to learn a few concepts and techniques and then work on them till you have them down, rather than work one something for a class, and then work on something new, and so on?

    What I've also noticed is that there isn't any context to the techniques we learn. For example last night we worked on leg submissions, but we didn't learn what the pros and cons of the submissions were, when we should try to use them, and how to defend against them.

    Overall the feeling that I've been getting from these classes is that they would be awesome if you already knew what you were doing, because you can cut to the chase and get to work, but I'm not so sure this is the ideal environment for someone who is learning everything from a blank slate.

    If I could get some knowledge from people who also taken up MMA, and could perhaps share their experiences from when they started and how their classes were structured I'd really appreciate it. Again I could be way off here, and how these classes are taught is the norm, but I want to make sure that this place is right for someone of my background and skill set ( in other words a complete n00b)
    Last edited by Thorfightbear; 8/30/2011 8:25pm at .

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    1,964
    Style
    BJJ, judo, rapier
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The class structure doesn’t sound encouraging, in my own personal opinion, if you get no context. It’s hard to say—maybe you just lack the context to fit them into—but I understand your frustration, and it doesn’t sound like a great structure.

    As for escapes—I wouldn’t worry too much about specific escapes as a rank beginner. The best defence against any submission is not to be there in the first place; escaping an armbar that’s already most of the way there is harder, and less productive, than preventing it. They’re called submission holds, after all, because properly applied your only way to avoid injury is to submit. Of course there are escapes; I just regard them in the most general terms as lower percentage and less important than good position, and learning to tell when things are coming so you can counter them early—which comes only with lots and lots of mat time. And you’ll learn to counter them better if you first understand how to use them.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    643
    Style
    Stabbing the Face.
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you can, ask your instructor questions if you're confused. He's there to help.

    As for the curriculum, it might help to take more classes, or train more often if you feel you can't grasp what you're being taught in class.

  4. #4
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    4,216
    Style
    BJJ
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is there a separate beginner class or are is it just one group all together?

    Some places prefer to have a structured curriculum for newbies where the aim is to give an overview so that you can recognise common positions and have a vague idea of technique, not to actually make you good at anything.

    On the other hand if you're just in a class with all levels you'll pick stuff up sooner or later. Ask your coach if there's anything you don't understand, lots of context is already known to most of the group, so he won't go over it every single time. Lots of people started out by being thrown in the deep end, myself included, and IMHO it doesn't do you any harm.
    For example last night we worked on leg submissions, but we didn't learn what the pros and cons of the submissions were, when we should try to use them, and how to defend against them.
    Most people almost never teach the defence at the same time as the attack, it discourages people experimenting with it and makes their early attempts more likely to fail.

  5. #5
    Scrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Dayville, Connecticut, United States
    Posts
    4,304
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ever walk into an old-school boxing gym?

    There is no "class," just a few trainers an a bunch of people working out or sparring. This is an artifact of the western "salon" style of training.

    It sounds like this place pretty much expects you to walk in, get the crap kicked out of you, ask questions, and then hopefully get your ass kicked less next time.

    It may not be the best training model for you. There are as many different styles of training as there are of fighting. If you like the place, just keep your nose to the grindstone, ask the more competent fighters and trainers for more help, and try to be relaxed and patient. You will learn.

    Otherwise, there are more structured programs out thter that my work better for you.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.

  6. #6
    WhiteShark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Atlanta GA
    Posts
    9,166
    Style
    BJJ/Shidokan
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How long have you been training? If less than a couple months train more post less.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    13
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for all the replies. There is no separate beginner class, there is just the submission wrestling class. In regards to asking the instructors more questions, that's kind of one the problems. Often the instructors are usually busy with other students or with the pro fighters, and the opportunities we have had to ask the instructors questions have been brief. As far as asking other students ( and this very well could be us) it seems pretty much everyone there has been lukewarm to us. They haven't been outright rude to us or anything, but they seemed more interested in working on their own stuff then talking to or taking any questions from us.

    I guess what it boils down to is that we don't seem to fit into this place very well, which is causing us (possibly others?) to feel uncomfortable which doesn't make for a very good learning environment.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    1,964
    Style
    BJJ, judo, rapier
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Be aware that most martial arts have a tremendous attrition rate. As such, I gather it’s not uncommon for people to be sort of ignored until they’ve stuck around for a while and demonstrated that they aren’t among the 90% who’ll soon disappear.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    13
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So we should expected be ignored and not taken seriously for several months? Unless I misunderstood what you said, that's not very encouraging.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    1,964
    Style
    BJJ, judo, rapier
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I’m not saying that you should or shouldn’t. I’m just saying, from what I gather, it’s not unusual.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in