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  1. CFGuy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 3:08pm

    Bullshido Newbie
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dey dun hided theyz smartz and skillz.

    Interesting thread.

    I'm new here and have only studied BJK for about 2 years now, but I have a few points I want to raise. Note: I am not disputing anything about Takamatsu's apparent "fabrication" of schools; I don't know enough information for an informed opinion.

    I understand the points and arguments here, and I'm not here to speculate history, but I really think the upper level BJK teachers are much, much smarter than they let on. My teacher studied with Hatsumi/Nagato for four years, and noticed that the art changed for a few students who showed no ego, and stuck with it. No desire to be some sort of reigning champion, and nothing to prove, just to quietly learn. Soke would teach a class, and everyone would get their standard fill, but there were a select few guys the shihan would grow in relationship with, and would occasionally get a friendly, quiet, informal invitation to train with them elsewhere. They'd just train with each other on a different level - not a "different art" or anything weird, just show them some of the less known unconventional stuff for fun (acrobatic stuff), and sometimes show them a few little simple tricks they wouldn't quite trust the group with (that were incredibly simple, often crude, and quite scary).
    And if you paid really close attention, you'd sometimes hear about "other" guys in there to study the art - like the "NSA guy" paid to live in Japan and train there, who isn't pointed out or named, for example.

    Regarding ranking: I know Hatsumi will also award people (especially westerners) frequent belts and ranks and charge them whatever fees he does, but the truly skilled and well respected guys don't really care what belt you are, they care about what you're capable of doing. They also know that if you're there to truly learn the art, you won't care about what rank you have. I know my teacher will only award belts based on how far he sees you progressing, and it's definitely not quick or frequent.

    My point here is that of course you're going to find the armchair warriors who will rant and post on forums saying "you don't understand" and argue, who will make uninformed claims toward their art. But what you often don't see are the quality teachers and students who are simply teaching and learning the art, who don't care about what everyone on the internet is saying, and don't care to bother arguing, because what good will it bring them in the end? And as long as Bujinkan works for their intended application, who cares about the rest?
    It seems quite similar to a few of the combat trade "special activities" fellows I've had the rare opportunity of meeting and briefly working with. No room for ego, no room for pretentious rank pulling and asserting, and barely any recognition for what they do. They simply do what they do, and are some of the most dangerous guys alive. Sharp contrast to your run of the mill Marine or new army enlistee (no dishonor meant, just a very different job is all).

    Also, regarding sparring - I hear about everyone saying "why don't you spar why don't you spar" - what is your true intended application of the martial art you chose? Is it really for combat?
    The problem with the sport fighting mentality, or any sort of "spar in a cage" mentality, is that it is generally not based on gritty, messy, self defense. Sure, you can tell me you spar "full contact" in your "combat" art. If that were true, however, then there would likely be a significant amount of dead, blind, and severely injured people in your school, and you probably wouldn't get a whole lot of students returning.
    Where I train anyway (not in a dojo by the way, and often in plainclothes), the uke always goes full contact - don't move properly and you'll get decked in the face pretty damn hard. But how are you supposed to go full contact with eye gouges? How am I supposed to "full contact" stab someone in the throat with the pen in my pocket? (Of course that's not all we train but I'm trying to say that sometimes, you can't spar full contact - for the things you can, however, we do). Also, (combatively) how often are you in an environment where you're squaring off with one guy in a clean ring? What about if you wear gloves one day since it's cold? Or the ground is slippery cause it's covered in ice? What if you can't grab his sleeve to throw him into an arm bar because he isn't wearing a gi? What if you sprained your wrist and now have to deal with a situation one handed?
    I'm not here to bash someone else's art, nor do I think BJJ or anything else is "ineffective" for street use - I've seen it put to use and it can be very effective; I don't think there's a "right" way, but in the scope of what I've seen, there seems to be a "preferable" way.

    I know Marines/Army are tough, but go ahead and ask a member: how many times have they had to kill, or plainly defend themselves, from someone with hand to hand/melee combat overseas? If they ever had to, what were the circumstances (were they outnumbered and out-armed? Were they alone? Were they in full gear? Was a well placed shot from a buddy available if they messed up?)? Again, no dishonor meant, but I'd hardly say that the majority of them are an authority on disadvantaged hand to hand combat.

    Sorry for the long rant, but my main point is - as far as the effectiveness of the art goes, I see it to teach a mentality; embracing adaptability, sharp perception, brilliant psychology, subtlety, calm under extreme stress (this has extended to every area of my life) and well-applied, intelligent technique, resulting in effective self-preservation. I know there are terrible teachers out there, but even if 80% of them suck, doesn't mean the art does. And even if the art doesn't fit your box of understanding or your intended application, doesn't mean the art is worthless. I'm not one to pretend to have some deeper ability to understand, but it honestly did take a long time of skeptical thinking to come to understand what the heart of it is.


    (PS - by the way, the truly skilled, respectable guys call "Ninjutsu" the "N Word", and don't use it to refer to BJK).
    Last edited by CFGuy; 8/27/2011 3:20pm at .
  2. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 4:35pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CFGuy View Post
    Interesting thread.

    I'm new here and have only studied BJK for about 2 years now, but I have a few points I want to raise. Note: I am not disputing anything about Takamatsu's apparent "fabrication" of schools; I don't know enough information for an informed opinion....

    blah blah blah...
    Yet ANOTHER know-it-all n00b with his massive thread-necro 1st post of transcendent wisdom...
    :Thoughtful:
    [oh, BTW, the shihan aren't "smarter than they let on"... they're just smarter than you]
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  3. CFGuy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 5:02pm

    Bullshido Newbie
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not claiming to know it all whatsoever, just found the thread interesting and wanted to bring up a few points from a perspective I hadn't read yet. If you disagree with points, or have more pertinent wisdom than myself, please discuss, I'd like to learn more. But addressing new members with such vicious sarcasm is a pretty asinine way to welcome someone new to the forums. I'm not going to bother addressing the shihan quip.
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 5:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LMAO at "NSA guy." I always love that one. Often claim some NSA or CIA guy is paid to live in Japan and train Buj but when pressed can't give any info. If that were true, and its not, you wouldn't know he was NSA or CIA to begin with.

    It seems quite similar to a few of the combat trade "special activities" fellows I've had the rare opportunity of meeting and briefly working with. No room for ego, no room for pretentious rank pulling and asserting, and barely any recognition for what they do. They simply do what they do, and are some of the most dangerous guys alive. Sharp contrast to your run of the mill Marine or new army enlistee (no dishonor meant, just a very different job is all).
    LMAO some more. You mean those "special activities" guys I live and work with on a daily basis? It always funny seeing civies allude to knowing how these guys are. FYI They are just like everyone else just with more high risk jobs. They have egos. They have fun just like any other joe they just get away with more.

    I know Marines/Army are tough, but go ahead and ask a member: how many times have they had to kill, or plainly defend themselves, from someone with hand to hand/melee combat overseas? If they ever had to, what were the circumstances (were they outnumbered and out-armed? Were they alone? Were they in full gear? Was a well placed shot from a buddy available if they messed up?)? Again, no dishonor meant, but I'd hardly say that the majority of them are an authority on disadvantaged hand to hand combat.
    Last count there were over 2000 soldiers that had to injure or kill an insurgent in H2H/Melee combat. No ninjutsu just plain old "sport fighting" techniques. BTW I am an authority on the advantages and disadvantages of H2H combat.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  5. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 5:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CFGuy View Post
    Not claiming to know it all whatsoever, just found the thread interesting and wanted to bring up a few points from a perspective I hadn't read yet. If you disagree with points, or have more pertinent wisdom than myself, please discuss, I'd like to learn more. But addressing new members with such vicious sarcasm is a pretty asinine way to welcome someone new to the forums. I'm not going to bother addressing the shihan quip.
    Pssst going to let you in on a secret before you end up putting your foot further in your mouth. Jim Jude has already been really chummy with the likes of Nagato and others. This is his way of tell you to read more and post way less.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. CFGuy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 5:31pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Had no idea about the H2H combat happening overseas - operating off the little I know. The question about the hand to hand combat for the marines was a legitimate one, not a rhetorical one. Since you claim to be versed on that (don't mean that sarcastically just don't know much about you), I'd actually love to know more about those situations, and how they'd compare to a self-defense situation outside of a military context.

    I'm very much aware they're regular people - a friend of mine has been in for quite some time, and I've met a few others - some could talk about what they do, a few others couldn't. Don't mean they're some sort of superhuman, or superior; they do just have a different job. However in a work setting, from my fairly little experience they've been generally more professional and humble than many others I've met, and that's all I was referring to.

    I apologize if I came off arrogantly, that wasn't my intention; just interested in discussion. I'll stick to reading.
    Last edited by CFGuy; 8/27/2011 5:42pm at .
  7. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 5:55pm

    supporting member
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CFGuy View Post
    Had no idea about the H2H combat happening overseas - operating off the little I know.
    Which was the point of JJ's post. You wrote a wall of text from a real position of ignorance.

    The question about the hand to hand combat for the marines was a legitimate one, not a rhetorical one. Since you claim to be versed on that (don't mean that sarcastically just don't know much about you), I'd actually love to know more about those situations, and how they'd compare to a self-defense situation outside of a military context.
    I am a Modern Army Combatives Program Instructor been one for a long time now. I been featured on the Military channel as well as several articles about MACP with multiple deployments. Those situations don't compare at all with self defense because it is in an already hostile environment so what do you think you would gain from such knowledge?

    I'm very much aware they're regular people - a friend of mine has been in for quite some time, and I've met a few others - some could talk about what they do, a few others couldn't. Don't mean they're some sort of superhuman, or superior; they do just have a different job. However in a work setting, from my fairly little experience they've been generally more professional and humble than many others I've met, and that's all I was referring to.
    That is not what you alluded to. You came of as trying to use that as an appeal to authority when it just showed ignorance. You also tried to draw similarities between training in the Buj to "special activities" which if you knew anything would know are NOTHING alike.
    You also know jack **** about training for actual combat. Sparring "full contact" doesn't lead to broken or blind people when properly conducted, although injuries can still happen. Anyone worth their salt will tell you that the best way to be proficient at something is to do that activity as true to life as you can. If you are not sparring full contact in your MA training then you simply are not doing it right.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  8. CFGuy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 6:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh ok, sounds interesting. What would I gain? Knowledge perhaps? Is this not a place to ask questions or learn for the sake or learning then?

    Actually it was an (apparently poor) illustration of professionalism; it wasn't intended as an appeal to authority. Obviously it came off the wrong way, so I regret using that as an illustration.

    I have actually not (intentionally) drawn any similarities between how one trains in a dojo and what happens in the real world, except conceptually. I'm very aware that they're nothing alike. I do, in fact, know a small amount about training for actual combat, and I know that combat is simply supposed to be "bloody training", but I was referring to people saying BJK is sissy cause they don't full contact spar all the time. I don't know how others operate, but I know we do fairly full contact stuff minus the stuff we can't, and there are injuries at times; not sure what other BJK schools are doing.

    Edit: To be honest, I hadn't read enough on the forum to know how it operates, and to know the calibre of members here; I apologize for any foolish sounding things posted, or any misunderstandings had (I'm not the most articulate). I'm legitimately here to learn, and so far I've learned what not to do.
    Last edited by CFGuy; 8/27/2011 6:56pm at .
  9. pokeroo is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 8:05pm


     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CFGuy, since you might poke someone's eye out if you trained full contact, I would wager that the purpose of you art can't be self defense, otherwise you would have to be capable of an responding with equal force. Its not for going off to war either, otherwise the training methods would be quite different. You alluded to all these people with small egos just training to learn and impressing each other with what they can do. I'm not sure how they demonstrate the actual martial value without full contact, and the other question is what are they devoted to learning? If its not for something practical such as combat or self defense that seems to leave historical value as the only other option.

    I was once like you. I spent over 2 years on BJK, and at the time thought that what I was doing involved hard training. Just because in a given evasion or counter to a punch or shinai you opponent swings with full force doesn't make it hard training. See this.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2011 11:52pm

    staff
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay before I cull the thread I just have to say ......Bullshit.

    Why is it only TMAers use the excuse "Dey dun hided theyz smartz and skillz."
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46037
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