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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 2:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing you aikido guys always leave out is ashi waza-attacking uke feet or legs with your own, either to distract, off balance, or throw uke. For aikido, it's all upper body type throws for the most part, although I have seen koshi waza done.

    As pointed out, doing some Judo with a good instructor would do you a world of good, it would open up different ways to engage uke, similar to what was suggested by PSB vis a vis wrestling duck under.

    In any case, I applaud you guys for experimenting. Keep it up!
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 4:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    You are so right! If your kid wants to become a NASCAR driver at age fifteen, don't enroll him in driving school, buy a stock car and put him on the track! Our experiment wasn't by any means an end. It was a beginning. I'm sure when a future boxer starts out he gets thrown in the ring with Pacquiao right away, and they spar full speed from the get go. This first time was to blend with a moving, not static attacker, and follow up attacks. I hardly believe anyone thinks this has made them combat ready. It is a progression. We are going slow as to not get things out of control, and break down into little wrestling matches. There was no script to this practice, it was all random based on what opening uke thought he could exploit, and nage had to try to enter and blend successfully. I think it was a good first effort.
    True to form of those who practice crappy MA.
    See the problem with you little post is that you are not a 15 yr old kid learning do drive or a brand new boxer. According to you, you have several years of MA training under your belt so it is nowhere near the same thing. You might think it was a good first effort which is sad because if you were doing anything decent you would have been doing this at the start. See I was a brand new boxer. I was dealing with people throw jabs within the first month of training.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  3. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 4:50pm


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An issue is certainly lack of striking skills at some aikido schools. Most people cross train at my school so its a little different. Additionally, my aikido organization holds a summer seminar where people from vairous martial arts are asked to teach. We did sparring sessions in a class filled with a lot of aikido-only students. I was sparring a friend who is athletic and a skilled aikidoka. His attacks and defense were relatively unchallenging, and I was actually able to execute a few aikido techniques on him. While I don't agree with the attitude of many responses, a certain truth is quality of strikes from the opponent when experimenting with non-compliant partners in aikido. Being from a dojo where most people cross train made me kind of complacent in the fact that the other guys know how to spar and roll a little. I was a bit taken aback by my aikido-only friend (from a different school)'s performance when sparring with me...and the fact I was able to execute aikido techniques.

    Blending is a great aikido principle to learn, but I like to focus on the idea of control. I feel this is the best martial aspect aikido can teach, though not often focused on. I've had aikidoka argue with me that 'control' is antithesis to aikido philosophy. I couldn't disagree more, but I won't get into that now. Anyway, if you watch some old videos of G. Shioda doing freestyle techniques you will see he isn't always performing cut and dry traditional aikido 'moves.' I find with these non-compliant situations its good to practice control and domination of space....your partner should not be comfortablly throwing kicks and punches at you, you should be up in their face or out of their range. Practicing this against an unscripted striking partner helps one have a healthy concept of ma'ai and moving around an opposing partner.

    To those who reccomend an aikido student take judo lessons: combining that with what I mentioned above is a great practice. In Judo, one learns their basic compliant training...then learns how, in practice, these things don't appear as they do in complaint partnered training. Aikido technqiues are the same way..they are there, but they don't look like what you are trained to look for. This goes back to my statement of Shioda. In aikido I think its important to train in this way...attack your partner to get enough control over them to execute an attack, and just scrap to the point where your presence of mind recognizes that an aikido technique is appropriate and your partner is set up to be compromised by it.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 6:00pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How can you train something for 17 years and only be a 3rd kyu, do you only turn up once a year or something?
  5. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 9:11pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    True to form of those who practice crappy MA.
    See the problem with you little post is that you are not a 15 yr old kid learning do drive or a brand new boxer. According to you, you have several years of MA training under your belt so it is nowhere near the same thing. You might think it was a good first effort which is sad because if you were doing anything decent you would have been doing this at the start. See I was a brand new boxer. I was dealing with people throw jabs within the first month of training.
    I personally don't have a problem with Aikido entries and blends. I trained in Kajukembo when I was younger. We sparred frequently at the main school, without pads or mitts. The first three times I broke my nose were on that mat. I have experience, but the 6th kyu we were training with yesterday does not. The theme of that class was for his benefit as well as 2nd kyu we were training with. Believe me, at first sign, my Aikido "strategy" seems to not be working, I'm pounding my way out of the situation as quickly as I can.

    True , what we experiment with in the dojo is just theory, till you get to use it, and yes everyone has a game plan till they get hit. I have used Aikido entries and blends at work. No, not against a pro fighter, but my job as a prison guard is why I train. The old days of beating a prisoner to a pulp just because are long gone. People are losing their jobs over excessive force. If I can successfully control a situation without resorting to overwhelming force to overcome resistance, I am that much better off. If I cannot, then odds are pretty good, I am justified in the amount of force I use, and I'm going home at the end of my eight, regardless of what my employment status may be afterward. Like I said before in other threads, it's a pretty safe bet, the guys I encounter, on the job every day, have more in common with some, would be, attacker, than a trained competition fighter, or professional.

    I am trying to set up a space on my property, where I can train with some fellow Kaj guys, an aspiring MMA fighter who is basically a brawler and wrestler, and some other martial artists from some other systems. I have an 800sqft workshop I am converting. I am not interested in competition, but I know the value of training in things other than Aikido for actual combat or fighting.

    The goal is to learn from these to be able to learn to defend yourself without getting caught up in some claim of excessive force. The mentally ill guy at the shopping center can be dangerous, but that doesn't necessarily mean he deserves to get the **** beat out of him for being sick. If I can manage this I would like to. Sorry for that, I am a native Northern Californian. I just like to have Aikido for the in between of nothing is going on, to opening up someone's nose because he doesn't get the message.

    I have never and will never make the claim Aikido could or should be used to fight a trained fighter. If I can use Aikido techniques and movements to stay out of reach someone, anyone, then I will, till I can't anymore and then it's time fight.

    Here I was talking about Aikido practice with an inexperienced 6th kyu. Wouldn't you say it was a good service to him to see how difficult it is to perform the movements even at a slow controlled speed, yet see how I was able to make it work for me, and how the 2nd kyu made it work for him after a while? As things speed up, or skill of uke increases, that's where we will get better, or learn where the limits are. Isn't that the point of training?

    I think that training goes both ways. Where a system can make the practitioners better, can't the practitioners strive to make the system better as well?
  6. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 9:21pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aikironin21 its a good thing to try and explore your art to see where the real practicality lies at with the techniques. The bad thing is too many people want to stick to if its not 100% live then its worthless mantra. As long as you are aware that your style does have limitations and you are working to find ways to fill in for those shortcomings ...then go for it and good luck.
  7. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 10:33pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    How can you train something for 17 years and only be a 3rd kyu, do you only turn up once a year or something?
    When I first started training, I didn't care about rank. Aikido isn't like other systems where they want you to test when they see you are ready. At least the schools I trained with were that way. I didn't really put much effort into many of the techniques. I started Aikido three years before I started working for the Dept. of Corrections. We used a technique similar to kote gaeshi in Kaj knife counters so I really wanted to just learn the applications of kote gaeshi for my future employment. Then I was exposed to sankyo and liked the way you could keep distance with it, and plus it could be really painful if you needed it to be. I learned every technique I was taught, but I was always looking for different variations of sankyo to learn and become proficient with. I also practiced hard at the movements and footwork from hamni and kamae. I wanted to learn the movements to use with what kaj training I had. I never intended to train Aikido this long. I wanted to pick up some knowledge and techniques and go back to Kaj training. The techniques I wanted, ended up being like onions. No, not cause they stink guys, but cause they just kept on having layer upon layer of variations and transitions. The longer I trained the more I wanted to learn. i had friends I trained with, who I trained with when there was no class.

    After three years of this, I started at the Correctional Academy. During arrest and control, I realized Sankyo, which was my technique of choice was perfect for controlling the arm and placed it in proper position for handcuffing. After arriving at my home institution, I was in short order assigned to outpatient psych units, psych intake, and segregation units. This is where my real training began.

    The inmates in these units were very unpredictable, and would assault you for no reason, other than they missed their meds. There were also many times where they just wanted to what they wanted to do but weren't allowed and were willing to fight it out. Since I was so green in Aikido still, this was some of the ugliest technique anyone has ever seen, but I found that once I settled down, I could find sankyo over and over. I then strove to clean up my technique and control myself.

    I kept training and sensei would ask when I would test and promote, but I didn't care about rank. I just wanted the knowledge, and since I was allowed to train with advanced classes I didn't need to test. Then a few years ago, I started thinking about retirement, and what I would do after state service. My father suggested I teach Aikido. I thought about for a while and decided I better start promoting. Right before making this decision, I met my wife. I tested for 5th kyu and my attendance did wane for a couple of years as she got pregnant and had difficulties. I wasn't even technically enrolled in the school but trained when I could paying mat fees, and sometimes for free. Sometimes, it was just Sensei and I in the early mornings. These were sessions where we would push ourselves and train close to full speed. After things stabilized at home I re-enrolled and tested for my 4th kyu right away. I thought of asking Sensei if it would have been possible to challenge the 1st kyu test. Since I was over a decade away from retirement, I decided I had plenty of time to go through the ranks, and decided to just go through the ranks.

    As a result of the economy tanking, that school closed, and I returned to training with an old friend at his school, he just opened up. Till then he was teaching on an airbase I didn't have access to. I was close to the hours to test for my 3rd kyu so he tested me within a few weeks and promoted me to 3rd kyu while having me help prep a 3rd kyu to promote to 2nd kyu.

    Two things I would change if I could go back in time, I would not have stopped Kaj to play football and rugby in high-school, and I would have listened to the suggestions of Sensei and seniors and promoted in Aikido. Now I am promoting, and am training in Kaj again also. They say I didn't need to, but I decided to start over from white belt again there too. I have been out of it for so long, and am so out of shape I thought it best. If all goes as planned, by the time I retire from state service, I hope I will be able to teach both.
  8. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 11:05pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jtkarate View Post
    Aikironin21 its a good thing to try and explore your art to see where the real practicality lies at with the techniques. The bad thing is too many people want to stick to if its not 100% live then its worthless mantra. As long as you are aware that your style does have limitations and you are working to find ways to fill in for those shortcomings ...then go for it and good luck.
    Thank you.
  9. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2011 12:33am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    An issue is certainly lack of striking skills at some aikido schools. Most people cross train at my school so its a little different. Additionally, my aikido organization holds a summer seminar where people from vairous martial arts are asked to teach. We did sparring sessions in a class filled with a lot of aikido-only students. I was sparring a friend who is athletic and a skilled aikidoka. His attacks and defense were relatively unchallenging, and I was actually able to execute a few aikido techniques on him. While I don't agree with the attitude of many responses, a certain truth is quality of strikes from the opponent when experimenting with non-compliant partners in aikido. Being from a dojo where most people cross train made me kind of complacent in the fact that the other guys know how to spar and roll a little. I was a bit taken aback by my aikido-only friend (from a different school)'s performance when sparring with me...and the fact I was able to execute aikido techniques.

    Blending is a great aikido principle to learn, but I like to focus on the idea of control. I feel this is the best martial aspect aikido can teach, though not often focused on. I've had aikidoka argue with me that 'control' is antithesis to aikido philosophy. I couldn't disagree more, but I won't get into that now. Anyway, if you watch some old videos of G. Shioda doing freestyle techniques you will see he isn't always performing cut and dry traditional aikido 'moves.' I find with these non-compliant situations its good to practice control and domination of space....your partner should not be comfortablly throwing kicks and punches at you, you should be up in their face or out of their range. Practicing this against an unscripted striking partner helps one have a healthy concept of ma'ai and moving around an opposing partner.

    To those who reccomend an aikido student take judo lessons: combining that with what I mentioned above is a great practice. In Judo, one learns their basic compliant training...then learns how, in practice, these things don't appear as they do in complaint partnered training. Aikido technqiues are the same way..they are there, but they don't look like what you are trained to look for. This goes back to my statement of Shioda. In aikido I think its important to train in this way...attack your partner to get enough control over them to execute an attack, and just scrap to the point where your presence of mind recognizes that an aikido technique is appropriate and your partner is set up to be compromised by it.
    I like what you say about the control aspect. Is it possible to achieve control while blending, or does the control aspect come during the entry, and then once you have entered and controlled, you blend? Do you see them as two separate opposite concepts, or as complimentary principles?

    I think I focus more on blending, because in my application, I am surrounded by people, all of whom are hostile toward me, if it came down to it. I may not have sufficient control to apply a technique, but I was able to avoid the incoming attack, and end up in a safer position.

    Case in point. A more unscrupulous officer and I were horse playing around on first watch. A long time story at the institution was about two officers that had disagreement and went to batons on each other. As we were horse playing he referenced the old story and pulled his side-handle baton. He began to lightly swing it side to side and warned me to stay back. I backed up a little laughing and he started to wing it harder, since he had more space. He said whatcha gonna do now? As he went to swing his baton again, I entered similar to a yokomen attack. I had to get low, but I made it inside of his baton and under his arm after a light atemi to his face. I ended up to his side and slightly behind him, and not only had him bent forward and off balance, but also had control of his side handle, utilizing it to bar his arm and take him down to a knee. He was admittedly shocked I would do something as stupid as move into a baton swing like that. He said "I could have hit you. How'd you do that?"

    In this exchange, where did I gain control, in relation to when I blended with the incoming force? Is this is a classic example of blending with a strike? An example of a late entry? If I had entered early, caught his elbow before or right as he initiated his strike, along with atemi to the face, like in a sumi otoshi technique, would it be of a direct entry; and therefore gaining control at that point be the concern; since the strike never really had the chance to materialize?

    I don't think control is the antithesis of Aikido philosophy. That is what we seek when we try to affect uke's center. What else could it be called if he is unbalanced and you are on balance affecting his balance, and keeping him unbalanced throughout the technique?
  10. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2011 12:29pm


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    Is it possible to achieve control while blending, or does the control aspect come during the entry, and then once you have entered and controlled, you blend? Do you see them as two separate opposite concepts, or as complimentary principles?
    -I feel control is a mindset as much as a physical technique. You could say control is established before physical activity. Think of zanshin. It is a concept of maintaining physical follow-through with technique, but it is mostly having a continuous mindset. Zanshin starts before the technique does. I like practicing O'toku, which is a formalized beggining and ending of each technique we do. Not practical for fighting, but it forces one to maintain that zanshin throughout, even after physical technique is done.

    -Anyway, point being blending and everything else is included under the concept of control. Call it 'benevolent control' if you want to put an 'aiki' happy spin to it. The control mindset including the fact you try not to be reactionary, but proactive. Blending is pretty much always happening, whether through a proactive technique...such as initiating with attacks...or react to a strike by moving into uke's space, 'blending,' and contorlling through that blending motion. All blending is, is moving into or away from an uke motion in a manner that coppies their speed/tempo in order to get away from the 'buisiness' end of their attack. I prefer 'moving in' rather than moving away....when I see non-compliant aikido happening its usually when the sh'te (nage) is 'all up in' uke's space doing what appears like sloppy aikido technique until uke is actually thrown, then you're like 'oh, yeah...there it is."


    I hope this makes sense...I was going to individually answer the follow-on paragraphs, but I think my reply above does that. Any more questions, let me know....though bear in mind I am no expert at all.

    -About aikido, in general, I would like to point out that most people here likely train in differengt styles with different mindsets. Finding simple, common points of reference relating to individual techniques is difficult as such satements as 'blending with his attack like a yokomenuchi' might mean a different thing to you than to someone else.

    -I regards to your work situation, I think that's pretty messed up. Hopefully there are more mature people working there now that aren't going to 'go after' each other with monodnocks or asps or whatever it is they issue you. Of course, aikido works alright in these situations...as you aren't fighting a trained warrior. In a situation like that, aikido really starts to look like judo in the fact you have to be agressive, have good timing, have an "a-type" mindset, and understand you will likely be beat on a little.
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