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  1. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 3:37am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Step in the right direction?

    Had a great Aikido class tonight. We broke from tradition, and practiced entries against more realistic attacks. By this I mean multiple strikes with jabs and such. I was training with a 2nd kyu and a 6th kyu. I am a 3rd kyu, but have been training in Aikido for over seventeen years.

    We didn't go all out, which I know will get criticism on this forum. Out of respect for our Sensei we kept things at an easy pace still. The 2nd Kyu and I sped it up, just a little between us, with good results. Even at the slow pace with the 6th kyu it proved a little difficult, but he started to learn he had to actually move after some light contact with his face a couple of times.

    I know there will be the request for videos. Our Sensei doesn't like cameras in the dojo, and I think he is right in saying that posting videos is an exercise in vanity and foolish, since you know how these videos will be received. I concede that the striking techniques and combinations, we used this evening, were less than that of which you find in any type of MT, boxing, or MMA gym. I am not trying to portray that we brought "the street" or "the octagon" to class.

    I think this evening's training may have been a step in the right direction of where Aikido training needs to go. We didn't even do techniques; the 2nd kyu and I were in agreement that Hamni, center, and entry were the most important aspects to be practiced at this time; something I know I have said repeatedly on this forum.

    I post this for the Aikidoka who come here.

    The 2nd kyu and I, quickly recognized, it was beneficial to treat the jabbing type strikes as full fledged strikes worthy of being blended with and connected to. It seems to be a mistake to simply try and swat them away and wait for a big strike to come with lots of intent. I reason that you end up in a sort of guessing game by doing this and it doesn't feel comfortable or seem to make sense to wait for someone to try and take your head off with a committed attack with all their power, if you can avoid it. The 6th kyu repeatedly did just that, and ate a couple for his efforts. He didn't recognize the jabbing punches as committed strikes. This I believe is most likely due to either inexperience at being in a fight, or the static manner in which traditional Aikido attacks are carried out, or both.

    In entering the jabbing technique, as entering any technique, it is important to keep both hands extended and best to try and get to outside the elbow with an irimi entry connecting at the elbow. Of course keep your center facing uke as you do this. When Uke attempts to jab again and turn so he can use the other hand and his power. Again step in pinning his elbow to his side before it has the opportunity to extend. At the same time, you step with his turning motion to obtain position behind him. Depending on how much you both have moved, this may be another irimi or possibly a tenkan movement.

    If you move to the inside of the jab, you need to extend a forceful atemi. By moving to the inside, you have opened yourself up for uke's power from his cocked arm. If you choose or end up inside, you better be focused. Extend the atemi up toward uke's face, almost as if the jabbing hand was a yokomen strike and you were blending with it.
    Know and be prepared for the power punch that will be coming from the other side. After making contact with the atemi, keep your arm up to shield you from the punch if it is still coming. If it isn't and he used that hand to block your atemi or your atemi was significant enough to halt the punch before it began follow through under the arm that threw the jab by striking just above the elbow on the inner arm and two stepping under neath it.

    If Uke has successfully punched with his other hand, instead if following through with your atemi hand, either make contact with the punching arm with your forearm at his elbow, drop down and step and pivot to pass underneath the punching arm so you can pin this elbow to his side and gain an advantageous position slightly behind uke; or chop down to his elbow with your atemi hand and extend to raise uke's arm to pass underneath it with a step and pivot.

    From here it's just about moving when uke moves, to keep this position and gaining control of his elbow.

    We have all done this type entry and blend before from yokomen or Katate dori. It isn't new. To me it has always been obvious, and I have used this, in the past, on the job. The fun part was getting to see some different attacks than we normally do in the dojo. Being patient and not trying for a big technique off the first jab but really trying to blend and connect with uke without him grabbing you or you grabbing him, while he is still attacking.
    If you haven't done this kind of practice then you should. It won't make you ready for combat right away. If you are still new take your time. If you have been training a while, you should recognize the application of things you already have learned to this type of training. Over time, you can pick up the pace, till you are able to flow with uke. I think this is a step in the right direction. I hope to have more opportunity to train in this manner. I know, someday when I have my own class to teach, I will use these types of attacks to train with as well as the traditional attacks.

    Next step is to apply techniques, and add active resistance. I don't see any reason why we cannot add this to what we already do.
  2. CrackFox is online now
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 4:55am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One session, and you're already drawing conclusions and writing essays about your insights?
  3. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 5:20am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Next step is to apply techniques, and add active resistance. I don't see any reason why we cannot add this to what we already do.
    Put boxing gloves on uke. Tell him his aim is to hit you with the jab as many times as he can (though not knock you out with it) and he's free to move around as much as he feels he has to in order to keep doing that. What you'll find is that it's just about possible to follow his jabbing hand into a clinch with him facing you, if you're sharp and he's a bit slow. But there is no way in hell you can step behind him faster than he can retract his punch.

    Look up what a 'duck under' is in wrestling. You need control of the other side of his body to make him step forwards or off balance sideways.
  4. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 8:55am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think every Aiki guy should do judo at least once or twice a week. That way you have something to fall on if your "blending" does not work. And if you guys take yourself seriously as MA, i think you owe it to yourself to take part in at least two boxing classes and two MT classes, just to get the feeling of a real strike. Or you will find yourself in this poor shmocks place.
  5. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 10:45am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Put boxing gloves on uke. Tell him his aim is to hit you with the jab as many times as he can (though not knock you out with it) and he's free to move around as much as he feels he has to in order to keep doing that. What you'll find is that it's just about possible to follow his jabbing hand into a clinch with him facing you, if you're sharp and he's a bit slow. But there is no way in hell you can step behind him faster than he can retract his punch.

    Look up what a 'duck under' is in wrestling. You need control of the other side of his body to make him step forwards or off balance sideways.
    If the really want to get it right they should bring in someone with actual competitive boxing or MT experience. Having someone play boxer isn't going to help much. If you train against a half ass jab from someone who doesn't know how to use it then when you encounter the real thing you will be at a loss. Other than that you are absolutely right there is no way he is going to get behind him before he retracts his punch. This is what happens when you half-ass MAs you come up with theories from pussyfooting around that will have not real benefit.
    ______
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  6. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 11:57am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    One session, and you're already drawing conclusions and writing essays about your insights?
    No, I'm not drawing conclusions, just sharing what we did in class, and how things went. I guess I kind of worded it to where it may seem I am drawing a conclusion. From past experience on the job, I used this type of entry and blend, in this type of situation. The purpose here is to experiment with non-traditional typical Aiki attacks, and attempt to use traditional Aikido entries and blends.

    That is why I titled the thread the way I did, with a question mark at the end. We have some young and new aikidoka who are very inexperienced, in life. We all know one of the major issues with Aikido is the compliant partner practice. That is why I say this may be a good first step in the right direction of future practice. We start here by adding the different type of attacks at the same speed, and progress or train up to full speed or near full speed attacks. Would it make more sense to to just go ape **** first time out especially with new and inexperienced aikidoka? I know our Sensei would not be pleased with students leaving battered and bruised. Plus the goal is to maintain traditional Aikido technique, If we just went full bore from the get go, then it just turns into a terrible representation of a sparring match, like the Aikido vs videos you see on youtube.
  7. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 12:22pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have you seen Tomiki aikido?



  8. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 12:54pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Put boxing gloves on uke. Tell him his aim is to hit you with the jab as many times as he can (though not knock you out with it) and he's free to move around as much as he feels he has to in order to keep doing that. What you'll find is that it's just about possible to follow his jabbing hand into a clinch with him facing you, if you're sharp and he's a bit slow. But there is no way in hell you can step behind him faster than he can retract his punch.

    Look up what a 'duck under' is in wrestling. You need control of the other side of his body to make him step forwards or off balance sideways.
    Uke was free to move around, that was part of the point of the practice. To use a more dynamic attack, with multiple strikes rather than just the standard static practice with single lunging punches and exaggerated strikes.

    We aren't trying to step behind before he retracts his punch. The way the yokomen type blend works, is you make contact at the elbow or forearm as the arm reaches its extension. If able to get to the outside of the jab or punch it's irrelevant the position of the arm as we are making contact at the elbow. We are not trying to block the punch, we are allowing it it's full motion, we are attempting to just not get hit by it by moving out of the way and deflecting and passing the strike.

    When going to the inside the key appeared to be the atemi or strike to uke's face. The hand closest to the striking hand is extended and makes contact again near the elbow. The position of the arm of the atemi arm prepares for a possible follow up punch from uke's other hand. The purpose of the atemi is to get uke's posture going backward. This is where you have very little time to get under the punching arm. Aikidoka are familiar with this kind of technique.
  9. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 1:16pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    If the really want to get it right they should bring in someone with actual competitive boxing or MT experience. Having someone play boxer isn't going to help much. If you train against a half ass jab from someone who doesn't know how to use it then when you encounter the real thing you will be at a loss. Other than that you are absolutely right there is no way he is going to get behind him before he retracts his punch. This is what happens when you half-ass MAs you come up with theories from pussyfooting around that will have not real benefit.
    You are so right! If your kid wants to become a NASCAR driver at age fifteen, don't enroll him in driving school, buy a stock car and put him on the track! Our experiment wasn't by any means an end. It was a beginning. I'm sure when a future boxer starts out he gets thrown in the ring with Pacquiao right away, and they spar full speed from the get go. This first time was to blend with a moving, not static attacker, and follow up attacks. I hardly believe anyone thinks this has made them combat ready. It is a progression. We are going slow as to not get things out of control, and break down into little wrestling matches. There was no script to this practice, it was all random based on what opening uke thought he could exploit, and nage had to try to enter and blend successfully. I think it was a good first effort.
    Last edited by Aikironin21; 8/24/2011 1:19pm at .
  10. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 1:51pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I understand you. I think I used to be you. It's all theoretical and pretty right now, maybe even a little magical. Let me cut this short: it's ****. It's all ****. To quote the renowned sage Michael Gerard Tyson: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."

    Go do Judo for a while and the come back to aikido if you feel that's necessary.
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