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  1. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 9:21am


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Turnovers into hold downs

    After training on last night ive realised that i suck at newaza especially at hold downs and turnovers ( after i failed to turn over an hold down a 17 year old female green belt and did 20 press ups as forefit.) they're quite an important part of judo and ive neglected them.

    Ive always focused more on going for the armlock or choke from my back and where these worked at my old club they now dont at my new one. My top control sucks everybody just seems to escape really quickly before ive got change to apply the lock/ strangle. Ive never pinned an opponent for 25 seconds at either club, everyone unless they're alot lighter can either escape or trap a leg with ease.

    Im think my shitty newaza stems from a total inability to control my opponent properly because ive never practised any hold downs properly. You know the whole position before submission mantra!

    I know the basic turnovers needed for my grading but ive never really drilled them ive always drilled more flashy turnovers which my instructor loves to show us such as:



    But as a hold down without the juji at the end. And:



    But with a collar choke instead of a neck crank.

    I dont like them a think they're gimmicky and low percentage athough im basing this on my own exerience and could be wrong.

    I want to start my newaza again, stop focusing on fighting off of my back and going for subs and start drilling hold downs and turnovers into hold downs untill i can properly controll my uke, then ill think about adding subs again.

    What turnovers and hold downs do you guys use? which are the most high percentage ones to use as a base for my newaza?

    cheers in adavance
  2. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 10:15am

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    The key thing for me when attacking and looking to pin is to remember that uke's COG is their hips NOT their head and shoulders.

    I see so many kyu grades heaving and hauling away trying to rotate uke over using their at uke's head and uke going nowhere because the hips are stable.

    I mentioned in another thread I like to dick about when I'm teaching and one of the ways I do this is announce I'm going to teach a super special new turnover they've never seen before.

    Have uke turtle up, make an elaborate show of circling uke to get in position then just shove them really hard in the side of the hip and they always roll over onto their back looking surprised.

    Its silly but it illustrates a key lesson attacking the hips is much more effective than attacking the head if uke's turtled.



    Now my favourite method of entering into a hold down from the turtle is this:



    To see what he's doing to uke's legs see this one, note he does a different finish in this video.



    Its very effective, dead simple and if you don't succeed in getting the turn and just flatten them out then well you've just made uke's job of defending that much harder.

    You can do it without the legs, but against strong opponents its harder than if you get the leg as well.



    I really don't like the kind of turns where you go underneath your uke or have to do a complicated series of hand insertions around their head and arms because...

    Going under your uke as a heavyweight, means you get squished and held down. Only do them if your -73 or lighter.

    Complicated hand insertions around their head and arms, have you ever tried to do that on a tight resisting turtle? Its basically impossible takes too much time when you could be doing other things.

    Anyway that's just me.
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 2:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like the chicken wing turnover as well, I call it a wrist drag though, not that that makes any difference.

    To the OP, start simple, get someone to teach you the pins, then the simple transitions between the pins that are used to counter escape attempts. Ignore chokes and submissions for a while. The fact that you focused on them as a beginner instead of control positions has gotten you into this predicament. Other noobs won't be focusing on them so much, so you had some early success.

    There are a lot of turtle turnovers and variations, I've got a French DVD that has several hundred on it. My advice is to focus on something that works in a series, each step being an answer to uke defensive move. Rather than trying to learn a whole raft of unrelated turnovers.

    I usually default to a sankaku roll type turnover, as I drilled that endlessly as a brown belt and shodan/nidan/, so I just automatically put myself into that position.

    My point being, you need to have something that you can drill until you automatically go for it without much thought, and that you have all the answers to uke various defenses.

    One thing I see on Youtube that bothers me, after a brief survey of "turtle turnovers", is that tori often uses a lot of force, like, force you hand in here, jam you knee here, etc. In shiai, against a determined defense, that really rarely works in my experience. Randori is another situation, but of course there is really no time pressure there, unless it is a time limited drill. Complicated stuff is the bane of the adrenalized condition you experience in shiai, although with enough drilling, you can use some fairly sophisticated movements.

    One thing that helps is to "scrub" uke to make openings. If uke is in turtle, insert your hand in the collar palm up behind his neck, grab the belt palm down, and face towards uke butt, outside knee up and inside knee down (kneeling position, like "kyoshi closed" in katame no kata (you can look that one up). Do do a tsugi ashi step to your rear, dragging uke along. this usually opens up some space to work with.
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  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 5:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I like the chicken wing turnover as well, I call it a wrist drag though, not that that makes any difference.
    I'm not such a fan of tieing it off, I usually just flatten them out, expose the arm and then drive them over onto their back.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    My point being, you need to have something that you can drill until you automatically go for it without much thought, and that you have all the answers to uke various defenses.
    Agreed. As with anything pick 2-3 moves and drill the living daylights out of them. Not only that, but make sure you drill them as part of a transition sequence from standing.

    Now if only someone had written a guide on how to do just that...

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    One thing I see on Youtube that bothers me, after a brief survey of "turtle turnovers", is that tori often uses a lot of force, like, force you hand in here, jam you knee here, etc. In shiai, against a determined defense, that really rarely works in my experience. Randori is another situation, but of course there is really no time pressure there, unless it is a time limited drill. Complicated stuff is the bane of the adrenalized condition you experience in shiai, although with enough drilling, you can use some fairly sophisticated movements.

    One thing that helps is to "scrub" uke to make openings. If uke is in turtle, insert your hand in the collar palm up behind his neck, grab the belt palm down, and face towards uke butt, outside knee up and inside knee down (kneeling position, like "kyoshi closed" in katame no kata (you can look that one up). Do do a tsugi ashi step to your rear, dragging uke along. this usually opens up some space to work with.
    Yeh the 'forcing in' can work sometimes, but its not optimal. I sometimes have to force in my hand for the flattening out shown in the vids I posted. One of the big tricks is being quick enough on to the turtle, because uke will usually fall and leave space long enough for you to get onto them and establish that 'catch' whether it be hand on the forearm, calf inserted for the sangaku etc....

    As you say if they don't the doing what you described is good for sangaku.

    I was taught that you never actually try and dig your leg in for the sangaku, but you grip collar and belt similarly to the way you described and pull uke into your legs. Main difference between the method I was taught and yours is the tsugi ashi step, but the principle is the the same.

    -----------
    No longer talking purely to Ben.

    The biggest issue I notice with beginners when doing turns into hold downs especially turns that attack mainly the upper body. Is that they always over commit into the turn and end up with their COG shifted over to uke's far side- wrecking their posture and making them easy to reverse and roll over.

    I believe this is because they get taught these upper body attacking turns and because they fail to appreciate that uke's COG is in the hips end up heaving and straining at the upper body turn until eventually uke rolls over. By which time they've committed themselves so fully in a desperate attempt to roll uke that they either go the full 360 and get pinned themselves or go most of the way over and end up pinning, but catastrophically off balance and vulnerable to a swift bridge and roll.
  5. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 6:06pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Originally Posted by BKR
    I like the chicken wing turnover as well, I call it a wrist drag though, not that that makes any difference.



    I'm not such a fan of tieing it off, I usually just flatten them out, expose the arm and then drive them over onto their back.

    I do the tie off a lot, I had it burned into me when learning the various sankaku rolls, and so use it on the chicken wing/wrist drag (I think wrist drag is a wrestling term). I learned the yoko sankaku rolls back when they were all exotic in Judo, one of my coaches learned them at an international training camp. Now they are all "ho hum, whatever".



    Originally Posted by BKR
    My point being, you need to have something that you can drill until you automatically go for it without much thought, and that you have all the answers to uke various defenses.




    Agreed. As with anything pick 2-3 moves and drill the living daylights out of them. Not only that, but make sure you drill them as part of a transition sequence from standing.

    Now if only someone had written a guide on how to do just that...

    LOL, yes, some mysterious person did just that apparently.



    Originally Posted by BKR
    One thing I see on Youtube that bothers me, after a brief survey of "turtle turnovers", is that tori often uses a lot of force, like, force you hand in here, jam you knee here, etc. In shiai, against a determined defense, that really rarely works in my experience. Randori is another situation, but of course there is really no time pressure there, unless it is a time limited drill. Complicated stuff is the bane of the adrenalized condition you experience in shiai, although with enough drilling, you can use some fairly sophisticated movements.

    One thing that helps is to "scrub" uke to make openings. If uke is in turtle, insert your hand in the collar palm up behind his neck, grab the belt palm down, and face towards uke butt, outside knee up and inside knee down (kneeling position, like "kyoshi closed" in katame no kata (you can look that one up). Do do a tsugi ashi step to your rear, dragging uke along. this usually opens up some space to work with.





    Yeh the 'forcing in' can work sometimes, but its not optimal. I sometimes have to force in my hand for the flattening out shown in the vids I posted. One of the big tricks is being quick enough on to the turtle, because uke will usually fall and leave space long enough for you to get onto them and establish that 'catch' whether it be hand on the forearm, calf inserted for the sangaku etc....
    The absolute best thing is to catch uke before he turtles tightly, for sure. That's why picking one thing and drilling it is so important, especially as you note as a complete sequence from throw/failed throw to turnover.

    As you say if they don't the doing what you described is good for sangaku.

    I was taught that you never actually try and dig your leg in for the sangaku, but you grip collar and belt similarly to the way you described and pull uke into your legs. Main difference between the method I was taught and yours is the tsugi ashi step, but the principle is the the same.
    I don't usually dig my leg in either, but use the scrub (or space left open by uke) to get into position, as you describe, pulling uke onto the legs.

    There are different tricks to getting the knee and heel together, or, not, and catching it on the roll. I also like the ura sankaku entry, though in either case if it ends up in a scramble that is usually OK too, something will present itself to latch onto and gain control.


    -----------
    No longer talking purely to Ben.

    The biggest issue I notice with beginners when doing turns into hold downs especially turns that attack mainly the upper body. Is that they always over commit into the turn and end up with their COG shifted over to uke's far side- wrecking their posture and making them easy to reverse and roll over.

    I believe this is because they get taught these upper body attacking turns and because they fail to appreciate that uke's COG is in the hips end up heaving and straining at the upper body turn until eventually uke rolls over. By which time they've committed themselves so fully in a desperate attempt to roll uke that they either go the full 360 and get pinned themselves or go most of the way over and end up pinning, but catastrophically off balance and vulnerable to a swift bridge and roll.

    I've seen the same thing as well, over and over again, getting too far over on uke is a common error when doing osaekomi, especially for kids.

    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 6:31pm

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    Ben, old fruit, you really do need to learn how to use the quote function.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I do the tie off a lot, I had it burned into me when learning the various sankaku rolls, and so use it on the chicken wing/wrist drag (I think wrist drag is a wrestling term). I learned the yoko sankaku rolls back when they were all exotic in Judo, one of my coaches learned them at an international training camp. Now they are all "ho hum, whatever".
    Oh, yeah, on a sangaku roll I always tie off.

    I had it burned/beaten into me too. Create space, insert legs, roll, tie off, then pull the arm through, then tighten up and lock in your legs and then apply sangaku.

    On this leg + forearm grab flatten out into a hold I rarely tie off.

    Although there's a variant where you grab the hip that Jimmy Pedro taught to my coach while he was at the OTC in Colorado that I demo occasionally where I do the tie off.


    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    The absolute best thing is to catch uke before he turtles tightly, for sure. That's why picking one thing and drilling it is so important, especially as you note as a complete sequence from throw/failed throw to turnover.
    Absolutely. This is the big difference between turns in randori and turns in contest. In randori you have time to methodically break open gaps and maybe even force entries. In contest you don't because the ref has started that 5 second progress countdown in his head.

    So as you say, catch them in the open while you can! And that is a result of intensive drilling so that its instinctive.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I don't usually dig my leg in either, but use the scrub (or space left open by uke) to get into position, as you describe, pulling uke onto the legs.

    There are different tricks to getting the knee and heel together, or, not, and catching it on the roll. I also like the ura sankaku entry, though in either case if it ends up in a scramble that is usually OK too, something will present itself to latch onto and gain control.
    Yeh, we're on the same page. Not heard it called the scrub before, but we're both working on the same basic space and opportunity creating method.

    Ura sankaku, is that the first one on the entry variations on the Adams and Briggs video?

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I've seen the same thing as well, over and over again, getting too far over on uke is a common error when doing osaekomi, especially for kids.
    Its very frustrating for me, because they make all this effort to roll their uke over and then end up over committed and in a worse position then they were before. I try and correct it whereever I can, but its too endemic as a result of these bloody head and arm attack turnovers.

    Personally, they really **** me off and I think they should be banned from being taught to beginners. Along with the roll under turns, but that's because I don't have the skill and technique to do them without getting squished, lol!
  7. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 7:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Ben, old fruit, you really do need to learn how to use the quote function.
    Well, old wanker, sometimes I just like to be different.


    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Oh, yeah, on a sangaku roll I always tie off.

    I had it burned/beaten into me too. Create space, insert legs, roll, tie off, then pull the arm through, then tighten up and lock in your legs and then apply sangaku.
    LOL, no matter how hard I try, in shiai, I default to sankaku roll, although at one point when training at ISU a few years ago I managed to get a pretty good standard Pedro style juji roll going on too.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    On this leg + forearm grab flatten out into a hold I rarely tie off.
    Not really nesessary in that case. I don't do the one from the rear like that, I attack from the side. It's on of those crappy "upper body" turnovers, but I suppose as I'm not a white belt I can use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Although there's a variant where you grab the hip that Jimmy Pedro taught to my coach while he was at the OTC in Colorado that I demo occasionally where I do the tie off.
    So how much did he charge (ducks).

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Yeh, we're on the same page. Not heard it called the scrub before, but we're both working on the same basic space and opportunity creating method.
    Scrub is a term that was in the old USJA training manual, may still be there for all I know. I have my students do scrubbing drills, uke really hates it. I teach the scrub first before doing turtle turning drills, until they do it automatically. That usually takes a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Ura sankaku, is that the first one on the entry variations on the Adams and Briggs video?
    If it's the one that Briggs does, no. Here is Kashiwazaki doing it. I use a different entry but it ends up in the same place. Starts at 2 minute mark.



    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Personally, they really **** me off and I think they should be banned from being taught to beginners. Along with the roll under turns, but that's because I don't have the skill and technique to do them without getting squished, lol!
    The roll under type turnovers do call for a greater amount of skill and nerve for sure. I personally like what I call the "double lapel roll", which can result in two different pins, and different chokes or arm bars depending on what uke does. That one is in the old Adams ne waza video (on VHS, in my case!). You basically insert hooks (usually grabbing uke by belt first), reach under both arms and grab uke lapels up high, pull uke to your chest, and roll to either side.

    My students have used it succesfully in shiai, usually ending in some sort of shime waza. There is nothing more gratifying than seeing a kid choke out some knee drop seoi spazz after the umpteenth flop and drop maneuver, especially when the same spazz has thrown everybody else for ippon with it.

    Our Japanese coach at ISU was a master of the getting under uke type of turtle turns. We drilled them a lot but I never got anywhere near to mastering them, like I said, you have to have a lot of confidence to go that route.

    Now I'm so beat up I can barely bend over, so my ne waza is sucking pretty hard at this point.
    Last edited by BKR; 8/20/2011 7:33pm at . Reason: Multiple video fuck ups
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 7:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Well, old wanker


    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    LOL, no matter how hard I try, in shiai, I default to sankaku roll, although at one point when training at ISU a few years ago I managed to get a pretty good standard Pedro style juji roll going on too.
    No matter how hard I try in shiai I still suck at the transition, lol! I either throw for ippon, throw for wazari/yuko and hold for ippon or lose...

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    So how much did he charge (ducks).
    I believe Pedro had to pay for the privilege of teaching them in double digit local fanny. Oh you meant...

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Scrub is a term that was in the old USJA training manual, may still be there for all I know. I have my students do scrubbing drills, uke really hates it. I teach the scrub first before doing turtle turning drills, until they do it automatically. That usually takes a while.
    Yeh doesn't matter what its called, the concept is universal. I've actually not really drilled the 'scrub' although I should really. Your plan of drilling the 'scrub' is a good one, and doing it before introducing turnovers is a good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    If it's the one that Briggs does, no. Here is Kashiwazaki doing it. I use a different entry but it ends up in the same place. Starts at 2 minute mark.

    Ahh ok. Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    The roll under type turnovers do call for a greater amount of skill and nerve for sure. I personally like what I call the "double lapel roll", which can result in two different pins, and different chokes or arm bars depending on what uke does. That one is in the old Adams ne waza video (on VHS, in my case!). You basically insert hooks (usually grabbing uke by belt first), reach under both arms and grab uke lapels up high, pull uke to your chest, and roll to either side.

    My students have used it succesfully in shiai, usually ending in some sort of shime waza. There is nothing more gratifying than seeing a kid choke out some knee drop seoi spazz after the umpteenth flop and drop maneuver, especially when the same spazz has thrown everybody else for ippon with it.

    Our Japanese coach at ISU was a master of the getting under uke type of turtle turns. We drilled them a lot but I never got anywhere near to mastering them, like I said, you have to have a lot of confidence to go that route.
    It does seem the Japs are uniquely good at those disappearing under turnovers.

    The hooks insert and double lapel grip to roll is one I teach and use as well. Its a classic but works. Again was I was stressing in the other posts, and you obviously know, is securing the hips with the hooks. If you don't lock up the hips and break the balance of uke's hips you won't be able to roll them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Now I'm so beat up I can barely bend over, so my ne waza is sucking pretty hard at this point.
    For those tired old joints.

  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 9:01pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    No matter how hard I try in shiai I still suck at the transition, lol! I either throw for ippon, throw for wazari/yuko and hold for ippon or lose...



    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I believe Pedro had to pay for the privilege of teaching them in double digit local fanny. Oh you meant...
    LOL, my coach had quite a few sordid tales from the USOTC. He was not involved with any of the racier ones, but did get into a few extracurricular skirmishes. I went to a party off-campus one time, and there were a lot of very drunk, younger judoka. The next morning, they were all hung over and I had a good time dragging them around as revenge for beating the crap out of me (I was a nikyu at the time). Of course, the next day, I was beaten to a pulp again.


    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Yeh doesn't matter what its called, the concept is universal. I've actually not really drilled the 'scrub' although I should really. Your plan of drilling the 'scrub' is a good one, and doing it before introducing turnovers is a good one.
    It's like learning how to do tsugi ashi..something that gets somehow skipped over in the teaching/learning process. Or shrimping properly for that matter!


    [QUOTE=judoka_uk;2592894]
    It does seem the Japs are uniquely good at those disappearing under turnovers.[quote]

    This coach was from Tokai U., so he got the benefit of N. Sato, Yamashita, et al. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of nage and ne waza, the ne waza which I found very unusual for a heavyweight (6' and 265 lbs). Watching a guy that big do a rolling juji gatame was pretty amazing. I got to be his uke most of the time. Fortunately he had very good control!

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    The hooks insert and double lapel grip to roll is one I teach and use as well. Its a classic but works. Again was I was stressing in the other posts, and you obviously know, is securing the hips with the hooks. If you don't lock up the hips and break the balance of uke's hips you won't be able to roll them.
    Yes, getting the hips under control is paramount, as well as getting uke to your chest before initiating the roll. That plus not letting uke ride up on your chest, but keeping him down low, with his head below yours.


    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    For those tired old joints.

    What, inject it? LOL!
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 9:37pm

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    So I found an example of the first in a series I teach to beginners, but I teach it off of the scrub action to open the space. I call it "double arm roll" to help them remember it.

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