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  1. downtime is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    187

    Posted On:
    8/16/2011 9:01pm


     Style: Bjj, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    It is obvious that OP was holding on because he was afraid of what would happen when he let go. He knew he didn't have the choke. He knew he couldn't pass HG. So instead, he held on for dear life to stall. He didn't do it intentionally, but rather it was because he was unsure of what else to do.
    I wouldn't say I was afraid of what was going to happen, dude I get crushed all the time and have nooooo problem taking my lumps. I was definately excited that I managed to gain what I considered a huge victory just in capatalizing on a small mistake someone way better than me made, and gain a good position. **** I'll admit I was doing cart wheels in my head. and probably blanked out for 2 seconds while OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG I just did that!!!! ran through my head. Was I concerned that if I just let go to focus on passing, yes I was concerned that I would not regain what I perceived as a huge advantage. I'd be concerned about that with any opponent I was facing.

    I've already stated I did NOT know that I didn't have the choke, hence why I wanted advice on how to not only address the improper position as well as how to tell it was the improper position without actually having to lift my head and look at my partner, how to better learn the feel of the move.

    I didn't say I didn't know I couldn't pass his guard. As a matter of fact thats exactly what I was working on at the time. I was using my instep to try and push down his knee to inch my leg thru so I could finish the choke completly from the correct postion. I think this is where the crank happened doing that little shimmy while holding the position. Im assuming anyway.

    I need to know your definition of stalling. We were using 5 minute time clock to help us better prepare for the short NAGA rounds. I held that position for no more than 45 seconds. If thats stalling, and (Im not being sarcastic here) Than yes I was stalling , if 45 seconds is acceptable than no I wasn't stalling. I was definatlely running my options through my head, and yes Im sure my brain processes that information a lot slower than experienced rollers, because It's not second nature to me yet or muscle memory. Sometimes you just got to do the formula of the long division math problem, sorry, I am working on that. Seriously your definition of stalling would be helpful, I know it's a penalty in NAGA comp and am curious as to what the refs consider stalling. (I felt like I was actively attempting a pass)

    I do like your idea of the count method, maybe not 5 but some one elses recommendation of 10 certainly sounds fair to me. Good advice I'll certianly try to remember it in a roll.

    About tapping. I do try to hold to the edge of the submission, I agree I find more value at my level at least attmepting to escape right to the end, and hopefully building tolerence to uncomfortable positions, ...train like you fight, fight like you train. I've tapped to face crushes that were supposed to be rear naked chokes, cranks that completly cracked my upper back and caused me muscle soreness for the next few days in my neck. I'll live, I'll get over it, at least thats my perspective. I don't get pissed about the early taps though, I dont relly feel I even have the right yet. I actually feel bad when someone taps to say a triangle and it takes 2 seconds to untangle my legs to release the choke, but thats me, It's important to me personaly at my level to be respectful of ALL my training partners.

    Sorry about the other post not going through. I was using work computer and it crashed, I actually thought nothing posted at all.

    And finally Uncle Skippy. I love your take on the reverse engineering, jigsaw puzzle. I think thats what I love so much about BJJ, I've looked at it as a chess game or a word / math problem to solve, and hopefully why I'll be doing this for a long time to come, it's something different every day.

    Thank you everyone for the candid feedback.
  2. PointyShinyBurn is offline
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    4,226

    Posted On:
    8/17/2011 4:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    Don't do that PSB. You know that 'five and then surrender' is a mischaracterization of my post. :-P
    I may have been engaging in a touch of hyperbole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    It is obvious that OP was holding on because he was afraid of what would happen when he let go. He knew he didn't have the choke. He knew he couldn't pass HG. So instead, he held on for dear life to stall. He didn't do it intentionally, but rather it was because he was unsure of what else to do.
    For me this presents a valid training situation for the guy on bottom. Some opponents will stall. Some will hold on. If you've got better jiu jitsu you should be able to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    That is why I advocate the 'count of 5' to people who have been rolling for a relatively short amount of time (<-- I should have clarified that in my post; that is my fault). They will have all the time in the world to sort out the details/adjustments/minutiae of submissions, but it is more important to work on movement, transitions, pressure, etc... than to hold on to something that they are unsure if they have or not.

    The 'count of 5' discourages stalls and encourages movement which exposes the beginner/novice to more transitions and control techniques. I see it as a way to encourage position before submission.
    I roll that way as a drill sometimes. But it's just one aspect. In my opinion it's just as important to learn to control, to pressure, to take space by inches and never give it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    To put people out, yes. To make most people tap, no. If the choke isn't sunk deep and it is taking too long, I'd rather they transition to another submission to work on chaining.

    But, I also see your point: if you are not applying a choke with the intent of choking them unconscious, you are doing a disservice to your training. If you don't give the technique time to work and let go of the choke too early, then you aren't training with that intent.

    My point is that for people who are still relatively new, it is more important to work on transitions than to try to hold on to that choke for a longer amount of time.
    I'd worry they'd be getting a false impression of how effective their subs are. Once you've been rolling a couple of years you can know when you have a sub and let it go, but I think in some new people's heads they'll end up doing the equivalent of grabbing your head from under side control and then asking after the roll if you were almost going out from that choke they sunk.
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