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  1. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2011 12:20pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I don't know about the katana, but I'll say this: having had the opportunity to work a bit with Mordschlag from Bullshido (a WMA guy), I believe that the two handed sword really is a complex study and was different than the FMA I've learned. OTOH I also train FMA with a guy who's a no bullshit aikido teacher (he trains law enforcement and has lots of field experience; has been shot and shot at others in the line of duty, crosstrains in FMA). He explains things sometimes in terms of katana technique. For example, how to step on angles that simultaneously get you offline an incoming attack yet also position you ready to strike an exposed area. This is the same angling (at least at a basic level) as FMA, and if you gave me a katana or baseball bat, that's how I'd try to move even though the weapon is 2 handed. I'm hesitant to say too much about it though, because I've heard that swordwork in aikido isn't really the same as kenjutsu.
    That would depend on the kenjutsu, which would depend on the ryūha, which would entail making a few hundred exceptions for whatever "generalization" one is making. Daitō-ryū kenjutsu is largely derived from Onō-ha Ittō-ryū; this school emphasizes "one sword" and downward cutting; it's also one of the main contributors to Kendō technique. This would be largely in contrast to the famous Niten Ichi-ryū, where Musashi favoured using one hand for his longer sword so the other may be available for another weapon or grappling or what have you. Although a lot of what he did was ostensibly in preparation for becoming a cavalryman, it resulted in innovations on foot; he would cut from the side and upward, getting around the guard of the typically downward-cutting opponent.

    I think what that shows is that even within an especially particular setting like feudal Japan there was a lot of room for specialization. Musashi finely tuned every aspect of his battles to the maximum advantage; this kind of utilitarian approach to warfare is in contrast to how ryūha would strive to attain goals abstract and unintelligible to the uninitiated. I think he would be into the FMA training methodology.
  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2011 12:36pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    I think what that shows is that even within an especially particular setting like feudal Japan there was a lot of room for specialization. Musashi finely tuned every aspect of his battles to the maximum advantage; this kind of utilitarian approach to warfare is in contrast to how ryūha would strive to attain goals abstract and unintelligible to the uninitiated. I think he would be into the FMA training methodology.
    IIRC Musashi was also about using the best weapon for whatever circumstance. In open warfare, use the bow, spear and gun, but don't try to use a longsword or spear inside. Rather than some schools that are all-katana-all-the-time.
  3. grizzledot is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2011 1:30pm

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     Style: FMA / JJ / WC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    -the WMA longsword material I've seen is actually very effective looking when the distance is closed
    I'm talking katana though, maybe I have a bad taste in my mouth from all the "neo-samurai" on tv/youtube running around chopping things that aren't moving or saying that samurai were the greatest warriors, and had the best blades ever. It just irks me after a while.

    I think due to this people end up overlooking the other options out there culturally for martial arts and I get frustrated that people just follow one thing like a lamb.

    I have seen wma move differently and deal with close range in effective ways. I feel that a lot of the time people forget that wma ARE battle-proven in the way that many claim/wish for eastern arts even though they weren't. People also over-look middle eastern ma which has some very effective blade-play. I also think boxing is over-looked by many as a martial art, when in fact it is very effective. I know I've said that elsewhere before on bullshido. Hell, even african arts are written off by many. I guess if they can't "google" it an art just doesn't exit to them?


    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    -I wouldn't say that a single handed sword is better or faster than a two handed one
    For me personally I won't say that it is "better", maybe I should choose my words/tone a little differently. I will say given the choice I'd use something shorter and one handed so that I have more options.

    I'm sure there are people out there who'd rather use a two-handed weapon, but I'm just not one of them. There are different situations and different tools for the job, but like I said if I can chose before-hand what I pick up, then no two-handy for me. Yes, in my research I have seen many things that look cool and even effective for others, but some just don't work for me. I'm basing it just off of what I was taught.
    Last edited by grizzledot; 8/11/2011 1:35pm at .
  4. bluedevilboy76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2011 12:20am


     Style: kali

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lots of really good points here. If I may add, a study of weapons and how they handle is also really valuable (an axe handle acts differently from a baseball bat from a metal pipe etc.). If our training relies on sound principles, then all we need is time training with any tool to make that tool more effective.
  5. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2011 2:12am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Atienza kali trains with some novel weapons you don't see so often in martial arts, including bows and arrows, guns and a weighted sock. Interesting stuff:


  6. bluedevilboy76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 10:51pm


     Style: kali

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Atienza kali trains with some novel weapons you don't see so often in martial arts, including bows and arrows, guns and a weighted sock. Interesting stuff:


    Nice clips. Having trained with Tuhon Carl with the use of the trapo, I can easily say that it's one of the most devastating impact weapons out there. Also: it's a flexible weighted weapon, but it's definitely not a rock in a sock. My favorite quote on the subject of different weapons is from Pamana Tuhon Sayoc: "A knife fighter is just a fighter who has run out of bullets." To that point, the only limitations that exist are self-induced.
  7. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/05/2011 4:36pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Borderline thread-necro here, but the Kali forum is quiet enough that I'll forgive myself.

    IMO the advantages of one handed vs 2 handed weapons seems to come down to armour. Weapons are generally designed and subsequently favoured in terms of what they are going to be attacking. It makes sense to use a two handed weapon when attacking someone in armour. In duelling culture, a different approach, and so different weapon was in favour.

    I know very little about the Filipino history, but I'm going to guess from the nature of their blades that armour was light and/or uncommon.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2011 6:06pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Someone posted this recently on a FMA group I'm a part of on Facebook:


    The only 2 handed thing I've ever used in FMA was the bangkaw, so I can't really comment on what's happening in that video, except to note that the teacher's a well respected FMA teacher. I'd be particularly interested in what any kendo/JSA people think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    Borderline thread-necro here, but the Kali forum is quiet enough that I'll forgive myself.

    IMO the advantages of one handed vs 2 handed weapons seems to come down to armour. Weapons are generally designed and subsequently favoured in terms of what they are going to be attacking. It makes sense to use a two handed weapon when attacking someone in armour. In duelling culture, a different approach, and so different weapon was in favour.

    I know very little about the Filipino history, but I'm going to guess from the nature of their blades that armour was light and/or uncommon.
    Armor was uncommon, but the shield was fairly common, used with the spear or single handed sword. There's a few different types.


    I think the 1 vs 2 handed weapon issue is more complex than armor vs no armor. Social considerations about carrying a big 2 handed weapon, or desire to kill vs draw blood etc. In Mesoamerica, the macuahuitl was a popular weapon, and it was 2 handed:



    Mesoamericans also had some very interesting cotton armor, but those beasts look like overkill. The weapon could also be used to knock people out with the flat part, because their goal was often to capture live prisoners.

    Here, we see Amazonian natives with their signature giant war clubs, sans armor or clothing:



    Polynesians have stuff like that too. I think your point was moreso about swords, and it probably takes more power to kill/disable with wooden weapons, but my point was moreso that there's all kinds of cultural factors that can lead to weapons' forms.
    Last edited by Permalost; 10/05/2011 6:24pm at .
  9. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 1:30am


     

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    "Cultural factors" really hits the nail on the head. I really appreciate how FMA seems to have boiled down the fundamentals of combat by developing in such a primordial environment. You have to dig a lot deeper into the classical MA of the more advanced neighboring civilizations to find what's relevant.

    On the topic of JMA vs. FMA with the two handed weapons in that video: those strikes have analogous cuts in the various sword arts, although you see a great deal more cutting downward than upward in Japanese swordsmanship. The grip with two hands very close together occurs sometimes; this Toyama Ryū tameshigiri shows a similar grip:

    The flurry of movement on display in FMA has no parallel I know of; cuts are typically meant to be decisive (although exercises like kirikaeshi in Kenexist). These are often high risk techniques, although I think this speaks to those "cultural factors".

    FMA seems to favour minimum risk over a longer exchange; perhaps they are polar opposites in this regard?
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 10/06/2011 1:35am at .
  10. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 10:41pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rene Latosa teaches FMA as concepts only, not specific weapons. He can and has taught all the weapons, even Katana and Western Boxing, but that is not the point. You use single stick as a working tool to practice every thing. I have a stick and my own fists to train with, I do not know what I will have when I fight for my life.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

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