FMA Weapons: Applicability and Limitations?

**DARPAChief** · Posted On: 8/09/2011 8:13pm

As I understand it, part of FMA's practical approach to weapons training lies in a certain interchangability between blunt and edged weapons, and even armed and unarmed attacks. However, I've found myself wondering at how appropriate this might be considering the wide variety of weapons that could be considered "edged" or "blunt". Does this really mean that FMA training applies to not just ginunting, but also broadswords, katana, and jian?

It occurs to me that this cannot be completely the case as even within the spectrum of weapons local to the Phillipines, weapons will present different characteristics (e.g. dimensions, weight, balance) that demand their own particular deviations in order to take advantage of. Of course, I suppose that largely ignoring these discrepancies might be a worthy sacrifice if it makes for more of an overall competance among the various instruments.

I wonder what approach do you FMA practioners take when it comes to this? Just how applicable is your curriculum and how deeply do you specialize?

**tim_stl** · Posted On: 8/10/2011 8:52am

Originally Posted by DARPAChief

weapons will present different characteristics (e.g. dimensions, weight, balance) that demand their own particular deviations

you said it yourself - the differences in weapon characteristics demand deviations. fma that trains in a variety of methods gives you that base from which to deviate. some weapons will lend themselves to particular methods. the best way to figure that out is to pick up and play with every weapon you can get your hands on.

tim

**Permalost** · Posted On: 8/10/2011 10:52am

Tim answered this well. FWIW FMA folks I know are the most likely to train with some weapons outside of their style. For example, I've seen one FMA fighter use a bullwhip and training knife in a DBMA match. My teacher has a couple sjamboks. I sometimes work with a shilelagh or war club to vary things up. I find the techniques carry over to my old CMA weapons too (butterfly swords, broadsword, spear). I really don't know how common it is in FMA, but my style also has the bangkaw (spear) early in the curriculum, and in some ways I like it a lot more than the CMA spear I learned (the bangkaw is used kind of like a bayonet). Between the bangkaw, baston(s), daga and dulo dulo, I'd say most weaponry can fall into techniques for one of those, with some modification.

**grizzledot** · Posted On: 8/10/2011 3:30pm

Yeah, I also play around with other weapons and decide on which ones I just don't feel are practical for me anymore. Before FMA I used to love katanas and now usually when it comes to blades I prefer a much shorter weapon. So my own personal goal is not really to be proficient with every weapon, but to know a few really really well.

I think it also to some degree is going to depend on the person, their build, their personality, and the kind of FMA they practice.

But, yes as Tim and Permalost said... different weapons will change your movements too, IF you stay true to the form though. A lot of people throw form out the window and flail around.

My teacher would show me this, by having me use various blunt weapons... you end up striking with the tip more, and then we'd go to blade of some sort and you eventually strike less and drag/slice/stab more after the initial impact, but he'd have me switch back to stick/ blunt right after and you can feel the difference in the way you move the stick at first.

**DARPAChief** · Posted On: 8/10/2011 10:19pm

Thanks for the input. The idea of a base that you can mold around different instruments is very appealing; I'd really like to see how an escrimador would handle a katana or a sabre.

EDIT: Found it.

**grizzledot** · Posted On: 8/11/2011 12:12am

[QUOTE=DARPAChief;2588234]Thanks for the input. The idea of a base that you can mold around different instruments is very appealing; I'd really like to see how an escrimador would handle a katana or a sabre.

IMHO the shorter blade has the advantage for a lot of reasons.

http://youtu.be/ddpoY8T0pTo

**grizzledot** · Posted On: 8/11/2011 12:14am

Originally Posted by DARPAChief

Thanks for the input. The idea of a base that you can mold around different instruments is very appealing; I'd really like to see how an escrimador would handle a katana or a sabre.

IMHO the shorter blade has the advantage for a lot of reasons.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 8/11/2011 12:22am

I don't know about the katana, but I'll say this: having had the opportunity to work a bit with Mordschlag from Bullshido (a WMA guy), I believe that the two handed sword really is a complex study and was different than the FMA I've learned. OTOH I also train FMA with a guy who's a no bullshit aikido teacher (he trains law enforcement and has lots of field experience; has been shot and shot at others in the line of duty, crosstrains in FMA). He explains things sometimes in terms of katana technique. For example, how to step on angles that simultaneously get you offline an incoming attack yet also position you ready to strike an exposed area. This is the same angling (at least at a basic level) as FMA, and if you gave me a katana or baseball bat, that's how I'd try to move even though the weapon is 2 handed. I'm hesitant to say too much about it though, because I've heard that swordwork in aikido isn't really the same as kenjutsu.

The saber, on the other hand, is well suited for a tricky FMA player. Aside from the basics cuts, there's a strike in stickfighting where you twist the wrist over and hit with the back edge, which can be immediately followed with a regular strike along the same line. This can be called sunkiti (looping thrust) or doblado (false edge to true edge cuts). Anyway, with a saber, the curvature makes the small wrist motion into a fairly destructive motion, and more importantly, it can loop around a conventional block and stick them with the tip. Basically, the trickiness of the saber is the false edge, and stickfighting uses false edge strikes for trickiness as well. Some of my favorite stickfighting combinations are great with a saber. Here's one:

Backhand strike to knee> turn wrist over for false edge strike to right temple> abanico to right temple> forehand across left temple

With a saber, the 2nd strike loops around obstacles better than a straight weapon (and it would aim to pierce the neck). The abanicos don't really work, but it could instead be turned into a solid backhand cut across the neck or head. Another one I like:

False edge forehand strike to left temple> turn palm up and strike across torso or leg (works great even if they do a standard block against the first strke)

This can also be reversed on the other side by starting with a false edge backhand followed by a low standard backhand. If we're talking about doing damage with a strike across the torso, there are few weapons more damaging than a saber (the thought of a solid shot with a saber across the belly makes me cringe). It makes sense that Filipino stickfighting would work well with the saber, considering that the standard escrima stick is thought to be a safe trainer for the bolo.

**grizzledot** · Posted On: 8/11/2011 3:17am

I agree, sabre and other western blades are way different from katanas. I just have seen too many things go wrong with a two handed weapons. In my experience I've seen that it is easier to close the range and it basically makes that weapon useless, but also I have not seen EVERY person who uses a katana/bat so who knows?

Sabre's and other fencing blades are one handed and are much quicker and aren't as concrete once a strike is made. You can change direction quick enough to do some pretty crazy stuff. Look at fencers and you'll see how they are not planted. FMA has some long blades also, it's not all short blades and many largo mano techniques can easily be applied to a longer blade like the kampilan for example.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 8/11/2011 11:18am

Originally Posted by grizzledot

I agree, sabre and other western blades are way different from katanas. I just have seen too many things go wrong with a two handed weapons. In my experience I've seen that it is easier to close the range and it basically makes that weapon useless, but also I have not seen EVERY person who uses a katana/bat so who knows?

Sabre's and other fencing blades are one handed and are much quicker and aren't as concrete once a strike is made. You can change direction quick enough to do some pretty crazy stuff.

-I wouldn't say that a single handed sword is better or faster than a two handed one
-the WMA longsword material I've seen is actually very effective looking when the distance is closed