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  1. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 12:21am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    Why are some of you guys trying to take this seriously and suck all the lulz off this thread? You are being the internet equivalent to a crazy singing homeless Honduran woman on the information super-subway.
    Sorry, my fault. I saw how the witnesses in the train car twisted their statements to be one sided, and faulty. This is an aspect of the reality of self defense and using your training that many don't think about or even understand how screwed up things can get when you are dealing with people easily swayed by TV, radio, and the internet. It's out, people are thought about it, back to the levity!!!!
  2. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 12:32am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    HA! you're right! I did that! Spell check highlighted it and I clicked the wrong word when it corrected. Four sixteen hour shifts in five days has me weary, and I'm sure I made many other spelling or grammatical errors.

    Of course to some on this site, wouldn't the young man's action be parody of force?
  3. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 12:42am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rzero View Post
    Touching equals assault? American law is weird.
    When I was in Crim-J we learned:

    Assault is an attempt, coupled with the present ability to achieve, any unwanted touching, or injury.

    Battery is a successful assault.
  4. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 12:53am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Money View Post
    Weeeeell...... the letter of the law, and what police/prosecutors/judges are actually interested in aren't always exactly the same. Unless there's compelling evidence, or sign of injury...... depends on the cop you report it to really.

    A friend of mine got mugged by a gang, then 20 minutes later found the main guy who took his stuff alone. My friend hit him a little, wrestled him to the ground, strangled him a little, and called the cops. Letter of the law says that was definitely battery. The mugger was very keen to explain how he had been brutalised by my friend.... cops told him to shut the **** up. ;)

    And like Aikironin21 said, sometimes witnesses are full of crap, getting the police involved based only on witnesses can get some bad results.

    Dead Money
    If this was California, I don't think he would be held to the standard of assault or battery or even self defense. I believe at that point he was effecting a citizen's arrest of a suspected felon; in which case he has the ability to detain the individual and use whatever force necessary to detain him. Once he calls the PD or SO, they are required to accept the arrest on the citizen's behalf. If they don't it is a crime.

    It's not a good idea for citizens to go around attempting to arrest people they suspect to be criminals, because if you make mistake in judgement or identity, you made a false arrest, and I believe any force you used would then become battery, and if you made him change location, could even be considered kidnapping. Best to try and keep him in sight, and give a good description to the PD or SO, so they can make the arrest.
  5. vaquero de las nalgas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 1:03am


     Style: Hsing I, Bagua, Chi kung

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    Here in California, the I believe the law is similar. There is such a thing as parity of force. Yes the young guy touched the old guy first and pushed him back. In California, you don't need to back up to your last stand, but young guy had no where to back up to. When old guy leaned in, he was within arms length of young guy. Young guy stopped his forward progress by extending his arm and then reclaimed his personal space by following through with a push, not a thrust. The time it took old guy to respond, means any perceived threat that may have existed with the contact is no longer valid to claim self defense. His opportunity to react in self defense essentially expired. Add to that, pink hat intervening, makes old guy the aggressor and guilty of battery, regardless of any of the preceding events.
    Fixed.

    Analysis: lady singing on public train: Disorderly conduct.
    Bald guy telling her to shut up: Disorderly conduct.
    Hong Kong Phooey putting his hands on the bald guy:
    Although many people think that "assault and battery" is one crime, or that the terms "assault" and "battery" can be used interchangeably, neither are true. Assault and battery are actually quite different.
    Stated in Penal Code law 242 pc, the California crime of battery takes place when you actually use force or violence against another person.8 Unlike an assault, it isn’t just an attempt to inflict harm.
    As San Bernardino criminal defense attorney Michael Scafiddi explains9, "The easiest way to distinguish the crimes is this…an assault doesn’t necessarily involve any actual physical contact -- a battery does. Put another way, an ‘assault’ is an ‘attempted battery’, and a ‘battery’ is a ‘completed assault’".
    If Hong Kong Phooey or his attorney claim he was threatened, well, he never left the damn train. Throw that argument out the window.
  6. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 1:30am

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     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've always remembered the difference by remembering that there is such a phrase as "verbal assault" (meaning that physical contact is not a prerequisite), whereas "battery" is related to the word "beating".

    For whatever that was worth.
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  7. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 1:55am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by vaquero de las nalgas View Post
    If Hong Kong Phooey or his attorney claim he was threatened, well, he never left the damn train. Throw that argument out the window.
    It's hard to leave a moving train. Up to the point till after the fight, the train was moving. If you are talking about a civil matter, I still stand with my personal belief that he assumed the risk of getting his butt kicked when he intervened on the crazy lady's behalf.
  8. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 2:03am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Honestly, I think the only person that could be convicted of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt would be the bald guy. That's not to say that other crimes weren't necessarily committed, but it's a lot murkier. It's not really illegal to sing on a subway, and Mr. Pajamas can murk up the waters by claiming defense of the singing lady.
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  9. doofaloofa is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 3:36pm


     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CheeksWWAC View Post
    You guys keep saying he was intimidating. He never raised his voice to her, and never even stood directly in front of her. Theres a reason why everyone else on the train took his side.
    Quote Originally Posted by wetware View Post
    And here I figured that it was because she was the most obnoxious person in a 10 block radius.
    You two guys wouldnt help an old granny if some angry guy was at her? I dont believe that for one moment

    Besides I recon pink hat lady had put coward guy up to it and was egging him on, the bitch!
  10. wetware is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2011 5:48pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by doofaloofa View Post
    You two guys wouldnt help an old granny if some angry guy was at her? I dont believe that for one moment

    Besides I recon pink hat lady had put coward guy up to it and was egging him on, the bitch!
    Depends on how long she's been "singing". Honestly, though, I wouldn't have pushed the guy. It looked like baldy was trying to reason with her before he was shoved. I also would have asked her, politely, to shut the **** up. I'm guessing that I have better people skills than baldy, but I also did not have to listen to her for however long he had to listen to her. That singing is enough to drive anyone to madness.

    Pink hat probably had a part to play in it as well, ahhh.... white knight syndrome.
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