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  1. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2011 12:12am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol @ "Satan" being blamed @ 3:05
  2. tcakarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2011 11:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kyokushin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    in close quarter fighting like that fast hands and elbows always win....
  3. Sorekara is online now

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2011 3:02pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    I think this video should be examined for the reaction of the bi-standers. You can see how witnesses and be influenced by the emotional dynamic, and outspokenness of others. I mean really, can we get a discussion on who was right and who was wrong in this whole exchange?

    Obviously the one who has been identified as "old guy" was annoyed by the "crazy" lady and her singing. There are a few ways for him to deal with this. He can politely ask her to stop or keep it down, he can even move to a different part of the train. What he chose, was to be aggressive toward the crazy lady.

    Then in comes the "younger" guy, who regardless of what he is wearing; because it is LA and he could have been wearing that style of clothing for a myriad of different reason other than being a practitioner of any particular style of martial art, who speaks up for the crazy lady who may not be able to fully comprehend the situation. I wish we could hear the full exchange of words between the old guy and younger guy.

    The "pink hat" lady, at this point, has already begun taking a side with the old guy, possibly out of shared frustration of the crazy lady's singing and or whatever exchange happened before the video started. Notice she is telling the young guy to sit down and behave. I didn't hear him say anything other than to tell the old guy if he didn't like the singing he could move.
    Out of whatever sense of machismo or nobleness he takes up a very poor position to try and keep the old guy away from crazy lady. The old "all you need to do is stand up to a bully and he will go away theory".

    The old guy then turns his attention to the young guy. Maybe feeling a little emasculated because he failed to intimidate a crazy lady, he thought he would bow up to the young protector of said crazy lady. That's why he tries to provoke the young guy asking him,"What are you going to do?" He then plays his next move perfectly, bypassing the young guy and flanking him to feign a continued confrontation with the crazy lady and get a reaction from the young guy.

    The young guy had no advantage because he positioned himself poorly against the seat, pole and wall of the car. He played his only acceptable move prematurely when the old guy starts his fake conversation with the crazy lady. Notice, he only got to, "Now as I was saying to you ma'am." He doesn't really go into saying anything. His voice kind of fades off. The young guy, prematurely puts out his hand and squeezes around the pole. He touches the old guy in the chest and pushes him back to make some space. Like he was just trying to keep the old guy away from the crazy lady. The reaction of the old guy was one that seemed he was looking for more of a response by the young guy. He took a pause to evaluate if he thought he had enough of an excuse to get away with hitting the young guy.

    The old guy's whole mission from the point the young guy changed positions was to make the young guy appear to be the aggressor, as he takes out his frustration with the crazy lady on someone. He most likely would not have hit the crazy lady, but may have toppled her load of belongings as they exited the train or shortly after.

    Notice it wasn't till pink hat lady got between them that old guy says,"Don't touch me holmes" and hits the young guy. It was a perfect cell warrior move. The young guy had no where to go due to his poor judgment in position. He had no egress what so ever. His back was up against the pole. Pink hat was in the way so he couldn't have moved any direction other than slide to his right. When Pink hat occupied young guy's left arm, it created old guy's opening at young guy's face. Old guy exploited this opportunity almost perfectly. His first punch was a glancing blow to the young guy's mouth. He almost missed him. If he had better aim he may have folded the young guy right there. I agree with as many hits as he got, the young guy should have had more damage.

    So fast forward to just after the physical exchange, and you have pink hat trying to pull crazy lady's stuff away from her. She obviously has issues with crazy lady and is the second most vocal person in the car, but is the most coherent. As the situation calms down, you hear others on the train start to tell the young guy he needs to get off the train along with crazy lady for starting the fight.

    Now he did touch old guy first, but was old guy's reaction commensurate to young guy's action. The first second and basically all the punches were thrown by old guy, and he was obviously the aggressor. I think the, negative attitude towards the crazy lady and her singing and preaching affected the witnesses to where they began to side with old guy. Near the end of the video, you even hear witnesses saying the young guy hit the old guy first, and pointing out the number of people siding against him.

    Let's say for a moment the young guy really did train in the street deadly and beat down the old guy after that first punch. What would he do when the police do get there, and all these people are saying he started the fight and beat down the old guy. He would be screwed. I don't know how this turned out in that regard, but he may have gotten off light with a halfed ass whooping and no criminal charges. I's hard to build a defense when your only ally is the crazy Jesus lady on the train, who everyone else on the train is annoyed with.

    This is a good example of how witnesses can be unreliable.
    What the hell are you talking about?

    PS, Yes, I quoted the whole thing just to be a douche.
  4. CheeksWWAC is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2011 8:12pm


     Style: BJJ and Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    I think this video should be examined for the reaction of the bi-standers. You can see how witnesses and be influenced by the emotional dynamic, and outspokenness of others. I mean really, can we get a discussion on who was right and who was wrong in this whole exchange?
    If an old lady sings annoying **** loud in public, another person is allowed to tell her to STFU. If some Kung fu Jagoff wants to be a tough guy and try to intimidate someone else and then make physical contact, then he runs the risk of getting fucked up. Legally I think the winner would be ok but Im not a lawyer. Morally the second Kung Fu poser changed his seating arrangement so he could better mean mug the old man he had it coming.
  5. Dead Money is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2011 10:55pm

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     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Aikironin21's analysis was fantastic.

    Baldy definitely has the right to tell Crazy Lady to STFU, however:

    I can't make out most of the speach, but Crazy lady kept repeating "no threats" immediately before Baldy stepped around Kung Fu guy. He was speaking to her in what to me looked like a threatening manner given the context, following an apparent exchange of threats with Kung Fu guy. He then stepped around her 'defender' to approach her directly and speak to her directly - she was clearly afraid of this, as she shrank back when he leaned in. Could well count as assault in my view:

    Per http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assault

    "Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat......The usual test applied is whether the act would induce such apprehension in the mind of a reasonable person. The status of the victim is taken into account."

    Keep in mind after the fight she was screaming that Baldy was trying to attack her. To her, the apprehension was real.

    Kung fu guy touching Baldy was a mistake, could be argued as assault or even battery, but I rekon it might get kicked based on defending another from assault (the crazy lady).

    Baldy's delay after the push, coupled with the fact that Pink Hat lady had already intervened and stood between them, means that in my view he could also easily be charged with battery based on the video, even if Kung Fu guy got charged with Assault.

    Per http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Battery

    A battery may be justified as a necessary means of defence. 1. Against the plaintiffs assaults in the following instances: In defence of himself, ... Care, however, must be taken, that the battery do not exceed the bounds of necessary defence and protection; for it is only permitted as a means to avert an impending evil, which might otherwise overwhelm the party, and not as a punishment or retaliation for the injurious attempt. Str. 953. The degree of force necessary to repel an assault will naturally depend upon, and be proportioned to, the violence of the assailant; but with this limitation any degree is justifiable"

    However, the (little) law I've studied at Uni is Australian Law, not American Law, so yeah. I reserve the right to be an ignorant, wrong fool.

    Cheers,

    Dead Money
  6. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2011 12:20am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think FrogButtonMan should either tear-up his RLSH membership card or move and go patrol the mean streets of Boca Raton.
  7. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2011 1:29am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here in California, the I believe the law is similar. There is such a thing as parody of force. Yes the young guy touched the old guy first and pushed him back. In California, you don't need to back up to your last stand, but young guy had no where to back up to. When old guy leaned in, he was within arms length of young guy. Young guy stopped his forward progress by extending his arm and then reclaimed his personal space by following through with a push, not a thrust. The time it took old guy to respond, means any perceived threat that may have existed with the contact is no longer valid to claim self defense. His opportunity to react in self defense essentially expired. Add to that, pink hat intervening, makes old guy the aggressor and guilty of battery, regardless of any of the preceding events.

    The mean mugging young guy was doing was no different than a form of being passive aggressive, or akin to some civil disobedience tactics. This does two things, one it allowed him to protect the crazy lady without being the aggressor (which he ultimately accomplished despite getting his own ass handed to him), and two the old guy must move into young guy's space in order to escalate the situation. Claiming self defense is difficult when you have moved into someone else's space.

    I don't think young guy should be able to sue old guy for injuries, because he basically got what he asked for and in my opinion assumed the risk of getting his ass kicked when he inserted himself in the situation. The courts here in California, however would probably reward him for any medical bills he incurred as a result of the exchange.

    The issue I was originally bringing up, was how the witnesses twisted the facts of actually happened based on bias against the crazy lady. You can clearly hear a lady say that the young guy hit the old guy first which, honestly, I'm not even sure if he even through a punch or landed one in the whole exchange. Yet you have witnesses saying the young guy started the fight.

    My point was that, all of us need to remember this example when conducting ourselves in public. Witness accounts won't always convey facts of the actual event. This could very well mean the difference between going home and going to jail.
  8. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2011 1:57am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CheeksWWAC View Post
    If an old lady sings annoying **** loud in public, another person is allowed to tell her to STFU. If some Kung fu Jagoff wants to be a tough guy and try to intimidate someone else and then make physical contact, then he runs the risk of getting fucked up. Legally I think the winner would be ok but Im not a lawyer. Morally the second Kung Fu poser changed his seating arrangement so he could better mean mug the old man he had it coming.
    In the rest of the world, that may very well be the way things work. We are talking about California here though. The video, I believe, shows the old guy going beyond his right to express his opinion on the lady's singing, and shows him being the one who is attempting to intimidate not only the lady but the young guy, who correctly pointed out the old guy could easily move to the other side of the car to get away from the lady. The old guy chose to step up and challenge the young guy. This makes him the aggressor. The young guy moving to be in between the lady and the old guy, is not necessarily an aggressive move. It was foolish, but not in and of itself a sign of aggression. Just as the pink hat got between the young and the old guy to try and be a peace maker, the young guy positioned himself between the old guy and the crazy lady to prevent the old guy from assaulting or battering the crazy lady.

    The young guy could have mean mugged the old guy from his original position in the car. He didn't need to move to better do that. This move simply shows the young guy was trying to protect the crazy lady, passively. The old guy attempted a ruse to force the young guy to play a hand, the young guy fell for this and pushed the old guy back with very light contact. The old guy's reaction to this was to stop what he was doing, which was being aggressive to the crazy lady again, and back up. Pink hat steps in, and old guy punches the young guy, unprovoked at this point. I think if the PD sees this video on the seen at the next stop, old guy is going to jail for sure. Young guy may possibly, cause old guy will push the issue, and the PD can always release the young guy later.

    I think the Old guy, if he has a clean record, which by his demeanor I kind of doubt, would probably end up with some kind of probation and/or community service. Once he backed away from the young guy's wimpy push, and did nothing, that exchange was over. Young guy made no attempt to pursue old guy. Old guy would have been better off if he had just punched young guy at first contact right before the actual pushing motion or during the push. He didn't. He waited, he premeditated, he acted.
  9. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2011 4:40am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    There is such a thing as parody of force.
    LOL. Where do you come up with this shite?
  10. Rzero is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2011 5:06am


     Style: G-safe Krav Maga / TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Touching equals assault? American law is weird.
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