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  1. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 10:20am


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Koshi guruma

    So im training last night at my judo club and we start doing uchikomi and nagekomi for harai goshi. I really, really want to have harai goshi as one of my go to throws, i cant explain why i just see it done it competition video's at looks awesome! and its a " tall guys" throw ( thats me ) But i suck at it so so badly its unreal. Infact ive realised that i suck at all hip throws :Baww:

    My instructor has also realised this and has suggested that i should spend time working on koshi

    guruma.






    Im assuming the reason being that it will help me get used to fitting my hips in without having to worry as much about what my arms are doing. As well as getting used to doing hip throws without having to balence on one leg.

    I have picked up this bad habit where i seem to try a throw from to far away, instead of doing the usuall noob mistake of crashing my hips into uke and ruining the kuzushi i seem to turn in from to far away and my tsurite hand slips off out of where it should be and everything just fails, theres no lift uke just stays where they are and my arms get left painfull behind me.

    Im quite a bit taller than all my other training parteners so my instructor and one of the second dans are always telling me to take the high collar or behind the head ( koshi guruma ) grip because they are both tall and its worked for them. Ive been doing uchikmoi and nage komi practise using Tsurikomi goshi but really struggle with it when im paired with the smaller, heavier parteners. Although am having a bit of joy with osoto gari and sasae tsurikomi ashi from the same right handed grip from the lapel grip ( i grip just above my opponents collar bone because its at my shoulder height)

    I have obviously skipped a phase and gone from sucking at hip throws in general to trying to do a one legged hip throw and failing.
    Is koshi guruma a throw that people on here would suggest to bring me up to speed on koshi waza techniques?

    Ive done some google searches and there doesnt seem to be much about koshi guruma so i assume that its not a popular throw? I have seen Mike swains dvd and he says that its a good throw to learn if you want to develop your harai goshi? Is it a good enough throw to be used in randori and shai? Does anyone on here have it as there toukiwaza or in their arsenal of throws for randori and shai?

    thanks for the help in advance
  2. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 2:08pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In short, no, don't do Koshi Guruma to develop your Harai Goshi. Relying on a high collar grip for shorter uke is not the best way to develop, although in the short run against guys who are not any good it will help. Once you go to shiai and have to deal with guys your own size, you will be lost, other than helpless noobs.

    Train for fighting skilled judoka, not other noobs. Otherwise you will fight like a noob forever.

    I don't know how much taller you are, but it sounds like you have one or two coaches who are taller, so work more with them on standard gripping and your two legged hip throws, Tsurkomi Goshi is very good, but the progression I teach is O Goshi-Tsurikomi Goshi-Harai Goshi,and that can take several weeks to several months (more common).

    Balancing on one leg and throwing someone forward is hard to do.

    I had a student who was a lot taller than everyone else. It took him a while, but he got to where he could do decent O Goshi and Tsurikomi Goshi to us short guys (nobody over 5'7"), with him at 6'1". Part of it is getting the coordination to lower your weight and maintain balance, part is developing the strength, part is flexibility.

    If you insist on doing Harai Goshi, then use the same grip as in nage no kata (sort of an underhook), which might help, but won't help your tsurite action on the collar much.

    Koshi Guruma,no, won't help your Harai Goshi, totally different principle of throwing, and you still have to get lower than uke COG.

    Post some video for more specific advice.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 2:32pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ive never really got the hang of O goshi so i suppose it would be wise to start with that again. To be honest i struggle with all forward throws. I think it because i focus so much on my tsurite hand and getting it in the right place that i dont use the sleeve hand properly so i dont get enough " pull " with it.

    When you say to work on ogoshi to tsurikomi goshi to what extent? Should i work on o goshi until i can do it competently in randori then move on to tsurikomi goshi?

    Also about the underhook grip isnt that just like using a high collar grip or around the head grip? is and underhook and easy grip to get in randori?
    Last edited by adskibullus; 8/04/2011 2:35pm at .
  4. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 2:44pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post

    I don't know how much taller you are, but it sounds like you have one or two coaches who are taller, so work more with them on standard gripping and your two legged hip throws, Tsurkomi Goshi is very good, but the progression I teach is O Goshi-Tsurikomi Goshi-Harai Goshi,and that can take several weeks to several months (more common).

    I had a student who was a lot taller than everyone else. It took him a while, but he got to where he could do decent O Goshi and Tsurikomi Goshi to us short guys (nobody over 5'7"), with him at 6'1". Part of it is getting the coordination to lower your weight and maintain balance, part is developing the strength, part is flexibility.

    Ben
    Im 6ft 2' the rest are about 5ft 7 ish. How did you go about getting your student to develop the correct cordination to lower my body and keep balance? was there any specific drills or just loads of uchikomi?
  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 3:02pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Give me an hour or two and I'll have the answer to all your problems.
  6. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 6:15pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whatever you do, stay the away from the videos by the Israeli ninjas playing at Judo. They usually suck. This isn't one of their worst ones, though.
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 5:18pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    Ive never really got the hang of O goshi so i suppose it would be wise to start with that again. To be honest i struggle with all forward throws. I think it because i focus so much on my tsurite hand and getting it in the right place that i dont use the sleeve hand properly so i dont get enough " pull " with it.

    When you say to work on ogoshi to tsurikomi goshi to what extent? Should i work on o goshi until i can do it competently in randori then move on to tsurikomi goshi?

    Also about the underhook grip isnt that just like using a high collar grip or around the head grip? is and underhook and easy grip to get in randori?
    Quit worrying about randori. You can't even do the throws in compliant drilling, so what hope do you have in randori? Seriously, think about it. I'm not saying don't do randori, just that you are putting the cart before the horse.

    You don't have to be able to do O Goshi against people in randori consistently to show you can do the throw properly, the point is to absorb the coordination and basics that O Goshi has to offer. These skills transfer to more complex throws. O Goshi offers a lot of control with your hand around uke waist so you can focus on getting into the correct position without the complexity of the tsurite hand getting in the way. You still use the tsurite to help but it goes to the waist quickly (btw, just pull uke to you with it, don't grab the belt or judogi).

    Once you get O Goshi working with a moving uke (coming straight towards you at the least), you can move to Tsurikomi Goshi, which uses basically the same tai sabaki and body position, but with the tsurite in place on uke lapel.

    Do the type of tsurikomi drills as outlines by Judoka UK, this leads directly to tsurikomi goshi.

    Again, get Tsurikomi Goshi working with a compliant uke (not jumping, just not resisting), different directions of movement (straight back and circle to tsurite are good ones to work on), then you can try Uki Goshi (for the whole back bending thing), or try Harai Goshi and see what happens. You will need specific instruction that's too complicated for me to type out and correction the same.

    On the underhook, watch a video of the nage no kata to get the hand position. It's tsurite but under the arm of uke. This is an intermediate step, a progression, as you can use the underhook with your palm on uke shoulder blade to press uke to you and get proper upper body (and hence lower body) contact with uke, without the added complexity of the tsurite on the lapel. If you pay attention, you can transfer that underhook skill to your tsurite on lapel for Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, etc.

    Stop worrying about randori and learn the throw(s).

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 5:26pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    Im 6ft 2' the rest are about 5ft 7 ish. How did you go about getting your student to develop the correct cordination to lower my body and keep balance? was there any specific drills or just loads of uchikomi?
    LOL, several months of me riding him like a pony, cajoling, and endless drills, badgering him to stretch his hamstrings, etc.

    We do a lot of nagekomi in my classes, not so much tsurikomi drills (more now than then, as they learn details after getting the throws down). It's easier to just throw uke than to balance in uchikomi, stopping in the middle of the throw. Also, a lot of tandoku renshuu (solo drills imitating the tai sabaki used in throwing linked to nage komi drills.

    It's not easy, that's for sure.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 6:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's a radical idea...

    If your uke is 5 inches shorter and 10kg heavier than you, don't fucking do tsurikomi goshi, morote seoi nage etc... on them unless they are the don when it comes to uke-ing

    I know coaches will mix and match you and make you do drills going round robin between partners, but seriously, its wasting your time. If you get matched with a short heavy person as a tall lanky person practice your O soto gari or Sasae tsurikomi ashi, don't practice your Morote seoi nage. Tonight I saw a 6ft 3 lanker being made to practice Morote seoi nage with a 5ft 4 well built guy. The lank had no fucking chance, waste of his time, waste of his partners time and pointless exercise - shelve it and do another throw.

    I am also going to become more controversial and disagree with Ben...

    Shock et horreur!



    I really dislike O goshi for beginners, because I believe its actually a very complex throw although it looks mechanically very simple.

    Having your arm around someone's waist and trying to enter properly and off balance uke is incredibly difficult and 100% of beginners can't do it. Hell my O goshi is pretty shocking and I'm a reasonably decent dan grade.

    I would say practice O goshi is going to be very hard for your, harder than Tsurikomi goshi. Although it probably won't be as developmentally stultifying as practicing Koshi guruma from a round the neck grip...

    As an aside, because no one has mentioned it so far I'm going to explain why as a tall guy its especially important for you not to go doing over top/ HCG gripping until you have basic lapel tsurikomi down.

    Tall people often struggle with tsurikomi because they are constantly working with smaller and as heavy if not heavier people. This makes learning tsurikomi very difficult. So as a result many tall people often take the short cut of taking the HCG or round the neck grip.

    The problems with this are multiple, but the two most prominent are -
    Hand strength
    Sticking uke to the hip.

    To be able to do the HCG properly requires tremendous hand strength and excellent basic tsurikomi skills.

    You need to keep your elbow down constantly and forearm in contact with uke's chest, like so:



    Constantly, for every second you're gripped up.

    This is very hard to do. Then you need to do that and be able to apply tsurikomi 100% of beginners if they try this will basically pop their own hand off uke's collar because the pressure is too much for them and they can't keep their grip.

    With the round the neck grip its equally hard too perform tsurikomi and so when applying a throw beginners can generate pretty much zero kuzushi and lift. So what happens is they just bind uke, usually uke's chest, to their hip and then have to strain, heave and haul uke over to complete the throw.

    This is obviously technically ****.

    So while its challenging for a tall guy to learn tsurikomi properly from sleeve lapel, you do really need to put the mat hours in to do it and then when you have it down and the hand strength then you can come to the HCG and round the neck grips and you will be a real terror with them.

    Watch Shinohara using the HCG like a pro

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs_aGNZVnI#t=34s

    See how he gets massive lift with it, now go back and compare it with the girl practising at the start of the video and see how he gets the same amount of lift from the HCG as she does from sleeve lapel. That's what you need to be able to do, to use the HCG properly.

    So as it always come down to get the basics right and the rest all follows.
  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 9:48pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Here's a radical idea...

    If your uke is 5 inches shorter and 10kg heavier than you, don't fucking do tsurikomi goshi, morote seoi nage etc... on them unless they are the don when it comes to uke-ing

    I know coaches will mix and match you and make you do drills going round robin between partners, but seriously, its wasting your time. If you get matched with a short heavy person as a tall lanky person practice your O soto gari or Sasae tsurikomi ashi, don't practice your Morote seoi nage. Tonight I saw a 6ft 3 lanker being made to practice Morote seoi nage with a 5ft 4 well built guy. The lank had no fucking chance, waste of his time, waste of his partners time and pointless exercise - shelve it and do another throw.
    I agree, on the other hand, if he has nobody else to practice with (although the OP wrote that his two instructors are taller), I guess he only gets to learn ashi waza or Tai Otoshi. It's a sticky problem.

    [/quote]I am also going to become more controversial and disagree with Ben...

    Shock et horreur!



    I really dislike O goshi for beginners, because I believe its actually a very complex throw although it looks mechanically very simple.

    Having your arm around someone's waist and trying to enter properly and off balance uke is incredibly difficult and 100% of beginners can't do it. Hell my O goshi is pretty shocking and I'm a reasonably decent dan grade.[/quote]

    I don't teach O Goshi to beginners as a first throw either. I use Ouchi Gari and link it to ushiro ukemi drill progressions. Plus other drills with uke kneeling and tori standing for forward type throws.

    However, they will eventually learn O Goshi, linked to progressive tai sabaki drills. Sometimes I'll trade out seoi nage as well, depends on the exact circumstances.

    [/quote]I would say practice O goshi is going to be very hard for your, harder than Tsurikomi goshi. Although it probably won't be as developmentally stultifying as practicing Koshi guruma from a round the neck grip...[/quote]

    I'd agree with that.

    [/quote]As an aside, because no one has mentioned it so far I'm going to explain why as a tall guy its especially important for you not to go doing over top/ HCG gripping until you have basic lapel tsurikomi down.

    Tall people often struggle with tsurikomi because they are constantly working with smaller and as heavy if not heavier people. This makes learning tsurikomi very difficult. So as a result many tall people often take the short cut of taking the HCG or round the neck grip.

    The problems with this are multiple, but the two most prominent are -
    Hand strength
    Sticking uke to the hip.

    To be able to do the HCG properly requires tremendous hand strength and excellent basic tsurikomi skills.

    You need to keep your elbow down constantly and forearm in contact with uke's chest, like so:



    Constantly, for every second you're gripped up.

    This is very hard to do. Then you need to do that and be able to apply tsurikomi 100% of beginners if they try this will basically pop their own hand off uke's collar because the pressure is too much for them and they can't keep their grip.

    With the round the neck grip its equally hard too perform tsurikomi and so when applying a throw beginners can generate pretty much zero kuzushi and lift. So what happens is they just bind uke, usually uke's chest, to their hip and then have to strain, heave and haul uke over to complete the throw.

    This is obviously technically ****.

    So while its challenging for a tall guy to learn tsurikomi properly from sleeve lapel, you do really need to put the mat hours in to do it and then when you have it down and the hand strength then you can come to the HCG and round the neck grips and you will be a real terror with them.

    Watch Shinohara using the HCG like a pro

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs_aGNZVnI#t=34s

    See how he gets massive lift with it, now go back and compare it with the girl practising at the start of the video and see how he gets the same amount of lift from the HCG as she does from sleeve lapel. That's what you need to be able to do, to use the HCG properly.

    So as it always come down to get the basics right and the rest all follows.[/QUOTE]

    No controversy so far, you have any other shocking revelations to put forth?

    HCG for any beginner sucks, and is verboten in my dojo. Period, end of story. If someone has not developed very solid tsurikomi skills, they don't get to use HCG. Even then, HCG is often still a crutch, and as you wrote, a shortcut that most cannot do well enough to justify even trying.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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