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  1. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 6:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    You're also making the assumption that the person isn't changing their percentages at all.
    Not true. Our fatty is dropping from 25% body fat (low end of obese) to 21%. It says so right in the OP you mentioned :P

    In the example from the OP, it's entirely possible for the 198 lb. guy to drop 50 lbs. by losing 40 of fat and 10 of muscle, or for that matter, 10 of fat and 40 of muscle.
    I just used the medical definitions of 21% body fat as "normal" for a male. The guy in your example is completely shredded at 6% bf.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 8/02/2011 6:28pm at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 6:22pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by money View Post
    Interesting concept - you could keep adding external weight as you slim down in order to keep working out with the same total weight.
    I'm adding weight all the time (ran with 33 pounds of weights today). I find it's best to spread it around to wrists, ankles, gloves, belts, etc, instead of just using a vest. It's less realistic with just the vest, and the extra muscle development is all in your traps LOL

    Anecdotally, I used to work with a girl who had recently lost a ton of weight. Her calves and ass were phenomenal - I assumed it was from hauling around all the weight.
    Pics or GTFO
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  3. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 6:57pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post

    The only method I can think of so far to retain the strength and/or muscle is to do my cardio with large amounts of body weights, although I'm wide open to suggestions.
    With proper protein intake, alongside use of the muscles you wish to keep, your body preferentially retains muscle and burns fat. Fat is fuel storage, and is "designed" to be lost. Muscle is only used in emergency situations, and in anaerobic situations, as fat needs oxygen to be metabolized and muscle can be used in straight anaerobic glycolysis.
  4. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 6:57pm

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     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Not true. Our fatty is dropping from 25% body fat (low end of obese) to 21%. It says so right in the OP you mentioned :P

    I just used the medical definitions of 21% body fat as "normal" for a male. The guy in your example is completely shredded at 6% bf.
    If you're asking if losing weight inevitably means losing some muscle, then yes. Unless it's an unrealistically perfect scenario, this is going to happen. The point I was making is that the proportions at which fat and muscle are lost can be highly variable.

    As to how to accomplish maximum fat loss with minimal muscle loss? Well, you want to create the physical demands which trigger your body to release fat from storage, but requires you to hold on to as much muscle as possible to meet demands. Simply, cardio should be low intensity (70-80% of your Anaerobic Threshold), so that you maximize aerobic usage, which is a much higher proportion of fat utilized for energy. Strength training should use the same protocols as one would use when maximizing hypertrophy. Namely, moderate to high intensity, with high volume.

    Diet should be quite high in protein. This ensures substantial amino acids to meet the needs of the muscle tissue, so atrophy is minimized. Protein also requires a greater metabolic demand to convert to glucose for energy through gluconeogenesis. Carbs should be very minimal. Almost none whatsoever during periods of low activity. The only time you should consume carbs are directly before and directly after training. The carbs before will give you the energy to ensure an intense weight training session, and the carbs after will help transport the amino acids into the muscle tissue, to aid in growth and resist loss. The rest of the day however, your metabolism is easily functioning in an environment where fat metabolism can be very efficient. You want to avoid carbs during this time. Carbs are easier for your body to use for energy, so if you have a lot of them, you'll use them instead of fat. If you don't, your body will still easily be able to use fat for energy.
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  5. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 7:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Pics or GTFO
    Spoiler:
    Sorry, it was 15 years ago.
  6. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 7:36pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    With proper protein intake, alongside use of the muscles you wish to keep, your body preferentially retains muscle and burns fat. Fat is fuel storage, and is "designed" to be lost. Muscle is only used in emergency situations, and in anaerobic situations, as fat needs oxygen to be metabolized and muscle can be used in straight anaerobic glycolysis.
    My own experience is heavy protein intake + lots of lifting = fat lost at around twice the rate of lean tissue. That's a lot better than the other way around, which is what the model/theoretical case predicts. It's worth noting the fact that "lean tissue" includes a lot more than muscle tissue.

    Set aside the biochemistry for a moment and just think about the muscle load required by a person in an obese state, just to maintain mobility. As the total weight of stored fat declines, so does the demand on the existing musculature. Inevitably this will lead to a loss of muscle tissue regardless of how much protein the person consumes. Substituting a compensating amount of exercise might work, but it would have to be quite a lot of lifting considering how many hours a day a person has to lift their body weight around.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 8/02/2011 7:41pm at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 7:43pm

    staff
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    I'm adding weight all the time (ran with 33 pounds of weights today). I find it's best to spread it around to wrists, ankles, gloves, belts, etc, instead of just using a vest. It's less realistic with just the vest, and the extra muscle development is all in your traps LOL

    Pics or GTFO
    What?

    Don't come on here bitching about damaged joints and arthritis.
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 7:46pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    If you're asking if losing weight inevitably means losing some muscle, then yes. Unless it's an unrealistically perfect scenario, this is going to happen. The point I was making is that the proportions at which fat and muscle are lost can be highly variable.

    As to how to accomplish maximum fat loss with minimal muscle loss? Well, you want to create the physical demands which trigger your body to release fat from storage, but requires you to hold on to as much muscle as possible to meet demands. Simply, cardio should be low intensity (70-80% of your Anaerobic Threshold), so that you maximize aerobic usage, which is a much higher proportion of fat utilized for energy. Strength training should use the same protocols as one would use when maximizing hypertrophy. Namely, moderate to high intensity, with high volume.

    Diet should be quite high in protein. This ensures substantial amino acids to meet the needs of the muscle tissue, so atrophy is minimized. Protein also requires a greater metabolic demand to convert to glucose for energy through gluconeogenesis. Carbs should be very minimal. Almost none whatsoever during periods of low activity. The only time you should consume carbs are directly before and directly after training. The carbs before will give you the energy to ensure an intense weight training session, and the carbs after will help transport the amino acids into the muscle tissue, to aid in growth and resist loss. The rest of the day however, your metabolism is easily functioning in an environment where fat metabolism can be very efficient. You want to avoid carbs during this time. Carbs are easier for your body to use for energy, so if you have a lot of them, you'll use them instead of fat. If you don't, your body will still easily be able to use fat for energy.
    Since, in the simplest terms, you need an energy, as well as a protein, surplus to gain muscle, and an energy deficit to shed fat... I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to periodize this into two completely different phases (with different diets).
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 7:51pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The idea behind the diet TaeBo_Master presented (which is the same as what I suggested), is that prevents metabolic muscle loss as much as possible. As you pointed out weight loss = load loss = muscle atrophy (though it is mild). And a 2:1 ratio isn't bad, and that probably isn't the highest ratio either.
  10. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 7:51pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    What?

    Don't come on here bitching about damaged joints and arthritis.
    I've been doing this for about 10 months and the only joint injuries I have are from grip exercises.

    Remember, my body was already used to the exact same weight before. I just add external weights to stand in for the body weight I have lost. I was running with an extra 33 pounds, but I've lost 39 pounds since I started this training cycle. I'm actually working out at 6 pounds less than I started.

    I wouldn't recommend that someone just throw on a 50lb vest and start doing wind sprints, but if the person is coming down from overweight (or obese) I don't see how your body wouldn't be able to handle the weight; it already is handling it (internally). As long as the worn weight is added to replace weight that is coming off, at about the same rate.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 8/02/2011 7:59pm at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
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