Is San Shou considered Kung Fu?

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 8/07/2011 3:11pm

Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

someone training for amateur boxing, mma, or kickboxing would be very surprised to walk into a pro ring as well, wouldn't you say, zendokan?

That is true, but as an outsider, I don't know how amateur and pro look like.
I know that the third clip is of a pro fight, but I didn't know upto this point that only pro fights look like that and amatuer fights look like the second clip.

**Ming Loyalist** · Posted On: 8/07/2011 3:35pm

Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs

That is true, but as an outsider, I don't know how amateur and pro look like.
I know that the third clip is of a pro fight, but I didn't know upto this point that only pro fights look like that and amatuer fights look like the second clip.

amateur fights can vary a lot. some are in rings, some on mats, some on platforms. they usually have head gear, shin guards and often chest protectors.

pro fights are in a ring, with no head gear or shin guards. but that's the same with muay thai/kickboxing isn't it?

i don't see what was confusing you so much, was it the lack of a ring?

**Jack Rusher** · Posted On: 8/07/2011 9:30pm

As Ming said, amateur fights vary. The lowest level stuff usually looks like this:

... where these fighters range from having almost no proper training (mostly forms and a little light sparring) to decent training as they would have had for your video 2. This is either called kuo shu (as Omega mentioned above) or is called lei tai after the name of the platform on which they're fighting. Your video 1 is a stylized version of this ruleset that forbids face punching, and — so far as I know — is only done as part of that television show.

Your video 2 is what good amateur fights look like, with some variation among rules and gear. In the US, this is usually called san shou rather than san da.

Your video 3 is what most pro san da matches look like. They mainly occur in China.

(For more on the definitions of san shou and san da, see this post.)

**Artrat** · Posted On: 8/08/2011 12:57am

Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs

Thank you for the information.

So if I understand correctly, the single techniques that made up (your school's) Sanda came from CMAs (with probably English Boxing for striking techniques), but modified to have maximum effect under that ruleset with some minor aspects of the Wushu forms so that a knowledgable outsider could say that in Sanda school A, the Wushu that is tought there is Baji Quan and in Sanda school B, it would be Tai Chi Chuan, etc...

Sorry my bad, I misunderstood what you meant by Wushu. When I said Wushu in my post I was referring to contemporary sport Wushu, the modern stylised forms that the wushu orgs use for competitions.

I can't see your videos because I work for fascists, so I can't comment on them, but I imagine what my school did was something like video 2.

Originally Posted by It is Fake

No, not necessarily. There are two types of schools the one Art is talking about and others that teach classical wushu with forms and technique applicability that compete in Sanda.

This. Although my school was actually closer to the second type, we trained mainly in classical forms and techniques, and in class sparring and competitions were done under the sanda ruleset. We did also do modern wushu but that was kept distinct from the classical. The main point was that we were taught that the classical forms can have some application under the sanda ruleset, but the modern do not.

***TaeBo_Master*** · Posted On: 8/08/2011 1:21am

Originally Posted by Omega Supreme

3 different variations. The first is close to original San Shou. San Da (IMO) is the next evolution of San Shou. Remember there is also Kou Shu.

BTW I've competed in Draka which is a Russian form of San Shou. You were able to throw them over the rope.

Forgive me for asking a question borne of ignorance... but I had been under the impression that San Shou was a forum for combat competition, and San Da was more of a "style". Your post implies that I am wrong about that impression. Can you elaborate some?

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 8/08/2011 3:00am

Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

amateur fights can vary a lot. some are in rings, some on mats, some on platforms. they usually have head gear, shin guards and often chest protectors.

pro fights are in a ring, with no head gear or shin guards. but that's the same with muay thai/kickboxing isn't it?

i don't see what was confusing you so much, was it the lack of a ring?

The thing that was confusing me so much was that one group was wearing headgear, shinguards and a chestprotector while the other group was only wearing the boxinggloves.

In Muay thai (I'm speaking primairly of Belgium), amateur class is divided in groups:
- C-fighters, who wear shinguards and helmets
- B-fighters, who wear helmets
- A-fighters, no shinguards, no helmets
You have to fight 3 times per group (in a sanctioned competition), before you can proceed to another level, so after your 9th fight you can think about going pro, but that is rarely done since there's no good state protection for pro's here.

I have competed in The Golden Dragon Cup (Belgium Sanda Championship) here in Leuven, which is open to other styles, but there it was just a mouthpiece, cup and gloves and performed on a tatami.

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 8/08/2011 3:12am

Originally Posted by Artrat

Sorry my bad, I misunderstood what you meant by Wushu. When I said Wushu in my post I was referring to contemporary sport Wushu, the modern stylised forms that the wushu orgs use for competitions.

Sorry, with Wushu I tried to be political correct to describe "Kung-Fu", not the sport Wushu on music :-)

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 8/08/2011 12:23pm

Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master

Forgive me for asking a question borne of ignorance... but I had been under the impression that San Shou was a forum for combat competition, and San Da was more of a "style". Your post implies that I am wrong about that impression. Can you elaborate some?

Ming already answered it better than I. Read his post to see if that clarifies anything.

**CaseyRyback** · Posted On: 8/28/2011 9:11am

Sheeot. Haven't check this in awhile. Great stuff, but now I'm more at a loss. I guess it's a matter of opinion.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 8/28/2011 11:08am

No, it isn't that confusing.

Sanshou and Sanda are rulesets like MMA. You know how MMA is slowly becoming a style where people are belted or becomme BJJ blackbelts and golden glove boxers?

There are schools that teach a kickboxing looking type of Sanda or Sanshou. You do know forms and it appears to be a typical kickboxing class. The difference is mainly it comes form kung fu based techniques of that school.

So, yes it is kung fu. In some schools it is a style like hung gar. Most times it is a hung gar school using there techniques under the sanshou sanda ruleset. Like bjj being used under the MMA rulset.