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  1. Uncle Skippy is offline

    See my tongue. SEE IT!

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2011 7:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    What do you consider fancy moves?
    I've never verbalized or written this down before so I'm sorry if I babble.

    Just about anything that is more than "Setup, Apply, Finish, Establish" from beginning to end is something I would call fancy. Big movements that rely on minimal grips/frames as well. So really, medium- to low-percentage moves which rely too much on highly technical positioning and timing as opposed to basic posture, pressure, distance, and angle.

    Yes, I overthink things to the detriment of my own game :-P

    Jeff loves his deep half guard game. I personally use it as a support for my half guard game. I would never advise anybody to rely on deep half guard and I know he doesn't either but it is an excellent game to perfect for when the situation arises. Just like every other novel move it'll always come down to the basics.
    I think that's what I tried to say in not such a brief manner. :-P
  2. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 12:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think all positions will have variants to them. As such, I think Deep Half Guard is just that, a variant, to Half Guard. Just like other types of Closed Guard (such as the aforementioned Rubber Guard) is a variant of the Closed Guard. Someone already mentioned it being just another tool in your toolbox. To take that analogy further, think of it as another type of screwdriver. You aren't going to get rid of your regular, trusty screwdriver for your new deep half-screwdriver (or inverted screwdriver).

    Just like with the Guard and all the various variant Guards (X-Guard, De La Riva, Spider, Upside-down) the Half Guard is having all of it's variants added to it. In the end, the Half Guard itself will stay and the variants will be just icing on the Half Guard cake.
  3. Omega Supreme is offline

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 12:50pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    I think all positions will have variants to them. As such, I think Deep Half Guard is just that, a variant, to Half Guard. Just like other types of Closed Guard (such as the aforementioned Rubber Guard) is a variant of the Closed Guard. Someone already mentioned it being just another tool in your toolbox. To take that analogy further, think of it as another type of screwdriver. You aren't going to get rid of your regular, trusty screwdriver for your new deep half-screwdriver (or inverted screwdriver).

    Just like with the Guard and all the various variant Guards (X-Guard, De La Riva, Spider, Upside-down) the Half Guard is having all of it's variants added to it. In the end, the Half Guard itself will stay and the variants will be just icing on the Half Guard cake.
    Hey dude, I know you don't mean anything by it, but don't you think this is a bit obvious? I mean this is the advanced grappling section not a newbie basic white belt section. I'm in a bad mood so if this is coming off a bit flippant I apologize.
  4. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 12:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's also a bit wrong. Deep half isn't a 'variant' of under-hook half-guard in the sense that training one has much crossover to the other. It works super-awesome in combination with 'conventional' half-guard, but that's not the same thing at all.
  5. Syphilis is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 1:14pm


     Style: BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of people I meet only learn from youtube. it's funny to play against people who only do deep half/rubberguard and don't actually know side control etc.
  6. danno is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2011 5:34am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it's not a fad, it's not a game changer, it's just another position.
  7. henno is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 8:11am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think it has the surprise factor that it had maybe five years back. As people have become more familiar with ways to defend and attack it, I haven't noticed it nearly as much in top level matches in the last year or two.

    I agree with danno - not a fad that will disappear but now just another position.
  8. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 12:21am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Hey dude, I know you don't mean anything by it, but don't you think this is a bit obvious? I mean this is the advanced grappling section not a newbie basic white belt section. I'm in a bad mood so if this is coming off a bit flippant I apologize.
    I guess it could be looked at that way. Then again, I guess I always try to break things down in the most simplest, obvious way possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    It's also a bit wrong. Deep half isn't a 'variant' of under-hook half-guard in the sense that training one has much crossover to the other. It works super-awesome in combination with 'conventional' half-guard, but that's not the same thing at all.
    I'm curious by your position on this. I don't consider it on the same level as when, playing Half Guard in general, broke the scene. What I mean by that is, you can no longer play a good bottom game without having the fundamentals of Half Guard down. It doesn't, however, have to be Deep Half Guard, or Lockdown Guard, or Half Butterfly Guard. It does have to be Half Guard. Even if you are just recovering Full/Open Guard or going to the knees, you have to do it from some form of Half Guard if they get past one leg.

    Just like Open Guard. You have to a Open Gaurd to be able to play bottom game. It doesn't have to be De La Riva, X-Guard, Spider Guard, etc and so forth. It does, however, have to be some form of Open Guard. Otherwise, you'll simply get your Guard past every time your Closed Guard is opened.

    Now that doesn't mean that it can't become a core position that everyone needs. I just don't think its quite there yet.

    Forgive me if that comes off as repetitive.
  9. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2011 4:09am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    I'm curious by your position on this. I don't consider it on the same level as when, playing Half Guard in general, broke the scene. What I mean by that is, you can no longer play a good bottom game without having the fundamentals of Half Guard down. It doesn't, however, have to be Deep Half Guard, or Lockdown Guard, or Half Butterfly Guard. It does have to be Half Guard. Even if you are just recovering Full/Open Guard or going to the knees, you have to do it from some form of Half Guard if they get past one leg.
    The fundamentals of all those positions aren't the same, is my point. You have to have sequences, really, rather than 'positions'. You'll get more mileage by being very good at x butterfly-half sweep which sets up y deep half back-take rather than by knowing a million options from the same position.

    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    Just like Open Guard. You have to a Open Gaurd to be able to play bottom game. It doesn't have to be De La Riva, X-Guard, Spider Guard, etc and so forth. It does, however, have to be some form of Open Guard. Otherwise, you'll simply get your Guard past every time your Closed Guard is opened.
    My open guard sucks. Every time my guard gets opened I pull half guard (X-guard is a half-guard, by the way).

    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    Now that doesn't mean that it can't become a core position that everyone needs. I just don't think its quite there yet.
    This wasn't really what I was talking about. 'Half-guards' aren't necessarily more, or less, interchangeable with each other than with 'open guards'. The categories are kind of arbitrary, in that sense.
  10. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2011 1:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    The fundamentals of all those positions aren't the same, is my point. You have to have sequences, really, rather than 'positions'. You'll get more mileage by being very good at x butterfly-half sweep which sets up y deep half back-take rather than by knowing a million options from the same position.
    The fundamentals of the individual positions, due to their unique components, may be differences, but if they fall under the catagory "Open Guard" or "Half Guard" then there are certain fundamentals that are the same for those categories that they have to follow, i.e. you want to get an under-hook in normal Half Guard AND Deep Half Guard, you are just under-hooking differently, you want to get on your side, and you want to be deep on the leg (again, both normal AND Deep Half Guard).

    I would consider both of these to be "under-hooking" Half Guards.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    My open guard sucks. Every time my guard gets opened I pull half guard (X-guard is a half-guard, by the way).
    Have to give that one to you. Always thought of it and approached it like an Open Guard. Now that I think about it, you could almost approach the X-Gaurd the same way as the Deep Half Guard. It would surprise me if that's how it actually developed.

    Don't be surprised if some of you training partners (if they aren't already) start forcing you to play Open Guard. The good news, however, is you will get better at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    This wasn't really what I was talking about. 'Half-guards' aren't necessarily more, or less, interchangeable with each other than with 'open guards'. The categories are kind of arbitrary, in that sense.
    See my first response.
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