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  1. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 9:24pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    It might be tight hamstrings and lower back, but that's just a guess.

    You can also do a "three-step" seoi. You do a normal two-step seoi and then take third step backward and between uke's legs. You end up in a split lunge stance (it can be very shallow) and that shifts the flexion to your knees rather than ankles. That eventually progresses to the one-step version Travis does.
    I agree about hamstrings and lower back, and would add calves/ankles.

    The whole lunge/split type throwing is more than likely too advanced and besides is not basics/fundamentals, but are variations do deal with skilled opponents who require more control and leverage to throw.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 9:25pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    What was going on was that I would get paired with someone shorter than I am and my coach would say, "To throw someone, you've got to get your center of gravity below his center of gravity, and if they're shorter than you, you've got to get even lower. So get down lower...lower...but keep your back straight and don't lean forward like that."

    Now at my last practice, we were allowed the rare treat of being able to stay over and work on things for a little while, so I was able to pull this particular coach over to the side and explain my situation in a little more detail about being offbalanced backward when going down low while trying to keep my back straight. He said, "Well, tori does have to lean forward to load the uke anyway, and if you have to lean even more forward to get him loaded, that might be what you need to do."
    LOL, well, at least someone there gets it.

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  3. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 9:27pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    In one of my university PE classes, we worked on stretches, including the one where you sit on the floor with your legs spread and bend forward as far as you can; I got to where I could touch my forehead to the floor. Even as old as I am now, I can still touch my toes when we do the hurdler's stretch in judo class. I'm pretty sure this wasn't a hamstring issue.



    Thanks, I'll experiment with that.
    It's possible to do that with poor form, where the hamstring is not being stretched at all.

    Ben
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  4. Outis is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2011 8:06pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    OK, I get it now. I used to have a similar problem when I first started doing squats. You will need to work on your flexibility.

    From a Judo point of view, that sort of problem is not as serious as you might think. You will need to work on your flexability for sure, as that is part of the issue. I had the same problem with squats when I first started lifting seriously my senior year in high school (for Judo).

    1.) Doing a forward judo throw with both feet on the floor, say, O Goshi, Seoi Nage, Tsurikomi Goshi for example, is different than doing a barbell squat.

    2.) In the Judo throw, it does not matter if you heels come off the floor, unlike in a barbell squat. In fact, in a Judo throw, your weight should be on the ball of your foot anyway, not flat footed as in a squat.

    3.) On much shorter uke, it's simply more difficult to do uchikomi, particularly static uchikomi, in the throws and those similar as listed under (1). It is easier to do moving uchikomi, even easier to do moving nagekomi (throwing). In fact, uchikomi are, in general, harder to do correctly than actually throwing uke, period, regardless of the throw.

    4.) Moreover, you may well be doing the uchikomi incorrectly, trying to lift/load uke incorrectly, usually involves stepping into uke closely and trying to lift, rather than moving your body to the front of uke, lowering your weight (harder on shorter uke), tipping uke, and finishing the rest of the mechanics of the specific throw.

    So, to sum up, work on your flexibility, and make sure the mechanics of your judo are correct, and realize that shorter uke and throws like seoi nage, o goshi, etc, are more difficult.

    *edit* For a forward throw, you will be "losing" your balance to your front anyway as part of the throwing process, so your heels coming up is not an issue, in fact, you will have more mobility and better control of your balance that way. Forward throws are not about lifting and dropping uke (a common mistake).
    Much appreciated.

    I believe the real "problem" was the attempt to "correct" the "problem" that caused me to be offbalanced backward. While I might be marginally able to improve my natural posture somewhat, I think I'm just going to have to live with it and adapt my judo to it.

    Also, the barbell business was simply illustrative of the posture problem in general, not the way I do judo. I balance on the balls of my feet (but not too high on the balls of my feet), and I work at tipping uke and falling forward as you describe.
  5. Outis is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2011 8:19pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    It's possible to do that with poor form, where the hamstring is not being stretched at all.
    You mean like with kyphotic posture? I did the exercise with my torso out straight.

    Also, another flexibility exercise I did in my younger days was to stand with legs locked, bend down, and place my palms on the floor with the heels of my hands right at the tips of my toes. (I was inspired by an old photo of John Grimek standing on a chair and bending over with his wrists well below the seat of the chair; I was never able to get that good.) Even now I can still bend over with legs locked and touch the tips of my toes.

    I'm pretty sure the problem is the ankles without hamstring involvement.
  6. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2011 10:00am


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    Which throw exactly are we talking about here? Seoinage? The problem I see quite a lot with people on that throw is that they do not come in tight enough to uke, so they are pulling uke towards them and trying to maintain balance, often getting pulled back. If you spin in nice and tight, all you need to do is lean forward to throw. If you are already leaning yourself a bit it shouldn't be too much of a problem if your hips are close enough to uke.
  7. captainbirdseye is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2011 4:28pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    This is quite relevant to me, as I've recently broken an ankle and can only just get to position B on this picture. Truth be told it's more than enough to throw people.

    In my case, it's a lack of flexibility in the ankle and calf muscle. My physio has me doing two things:

    1) Lunges over a step, with the affected foot on the step
    2) Squats with my back to wall, holding the position at the bottom of the squat.

    Why not just seek professional help? You stated you were well read with regards to weightlifting, and that you checked your form in the mirror, but did you have a coach pointing problems out to you?
    Last edited by captainbirdseye; 8/10/2011 4:30pm at . Reason: because
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2011 4:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainbirdseye View Post
    This is quite relevant to me, as I've recently broken an ankle and can only just get to position B on this picture. Truth be told it's more than enough to throw people.
    Indeed.

    I constantly see people exaggerating the depth of the 'squat' and going to either halfway between B and C or fully to C. The unifying factor is always that their tsurikomi sucks, mainly because they've never been told about it or drilled it.

    Remember guys, the more you raise their COG by off balancing them, the less you have to lower your COG to get underneath them.
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2011 3:49pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Which throw exactly are we talking about here? Seoinage? The problem I see quite a lot with people on that throw is that they do not come in tight enough to uke, so they are pulling uke towards them and trying to maintain balance, often getting pulled back. If you spin in nice and tight, all you need to do is lean forward to throw. If you are already leaning yourself a bit it shouldn't be too much of a problem if your hips are close enough to uke.
    Your observation is an example of another extreme that happens when trying to learn forward throws. Tori gets too close or too far away. They tend to get pulled back because they are likely not too far away, but are straight up and down have tried to turn before having uke locked up.

    The main problem I see with forward throws is that people try to get too close to uke and get pulled backwards, instead of drawing uke to them. That's the basic form of forward throws, other entry methods spring from that concept.

    Ben
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  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2011 3:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Indeed.

    I constantly see people exaggerating the depth of the 'squat' and going to either halfway between B and C or fully to C. The unifying factor is always that their tsurikomi sucks, mainly because they've never been told about it or drilled it.

    Remember guys, the more you raise their COG by off balancing them, the less you have to lower your COG to get underneath them.
    I constantly hammer that home to my students as well. Proper tsurikomi results in less need to get low.

    Also, the various jumping towards uke types of entries for seoi nage and other throws depend even more heavily on proper tsurikomi and tai sabaki. That is why they are more advanced hairi kata than simply front turning entries (note: I'm using front turning even though it's really a back turning in order not to confuse all you judoka uk fans out there).

    In any case, lowering tori CG is part of tsurikomi or you are doing it wrong. Lower CG as turn, put arms in proper hikite/tsurite position, DON'T yank on uke with the arms and raise tori CG, as is commonly seen.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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