Judo Posture Problem

[Outis]

I have poor ankle flexibility due to a plate in my leg. I've success with split legged/lunging versions hip throws and seoi nage. It becomes a knee, not ankle, flexibility issue then. One way to do this is by taking a third, lunging step between uke's legs.

Biomechanically, there are a few ways of getting your COG lower. Bending the knees like a squat is one way, but you can also splay the leg wide (e.g. tai otoshi) or do a form of lunge (e.g. "Koga" seoi nage; "georgian" hip throws), or even drop to one or two knees.

Thanks, these are the kind of tidbits I was looking for, along with the vids.

[Outis]

Is it possible for you to revisit squats properly, slowly and with expert coaching?

But can coaching fix an anatomical quirk? As I stated in post # 10, even without a barbell on my back, I can't get into a balanced squatting position without my torso inclining forward, and the same was so decades ago.

[CrackFox]

But can coaching fix an anatomical quirk?

I don't know you, I've never seen you do a squat, but I would put money down that you don't have an anatomical quirk that prevents you from doing squats. I'd say there is a good chance that you're just doing them wrong, and have been doing them wrong for so long that it's become a highly ingrained habit.

Get some good coaching, put the effort in and see how it goes.

[judoka_uk]

Watch how Travis Stevens does seoi nage. It's not pretty, but it's effective.

Yeh... if he can't do a standard seoi nage, he sure as hell isn't going to be able to do that.

Thing is, we rotate around doing uchikomi drills for particular throws and I end up getting paired with shorter people.

Don't you think its a waste of your practice time trying and failing to get down low to throw someone who's so significantly shorter than you that you'd never try that throw on them in randori?

Just do another throw, if your coach asks what you're doing just tell them 'There's no way I can do that throw on them, they're too short' or just make up a shoulder injury.

Take away the barbell or take away the uke and the problem is still there for me. Here's what happens when I go into a squat position: For a very short distance, I go down with my back straight and my knees and ankles flexing. At the point my ankles stop flexing, my torso starts inclining forward as my knees continue to flex. This forward inclination is what allows me to keep my balance; if I try to continue down with my back straight, my center of gravity starts shifting back to my heels, and if I keep going down that way I'll end up toppling over backwards.

So you can't even get to B, I'm not talking about getting to C?

[Res Judicata]

It might be tight hamstrings and lower back, but that's just a guess.

You can also do a "three-step" seoi. You do a normal two-step seoi and then take third step backward and between uke's legs. You end up in a split lunge stance (it can be very shallow) and that shifts the flexion to your knees rather than ankles. That eventually progresses to the one-step version Travis does.

[Outis]

if your coach asks what you're doing just tell them 'There's no way I can do that throw on them, they're too short'

What was going on was that I would get paired with someone shorter than I am and my coach would say, "To throw someone, you've got to get your center of gravity below his center of gravity, and if they're shorter than you, you've got to get even lower. So get down lower...lower...but keep your back straight and don't lean forward like that."

Now at my last practice, we were allowed the rare treat of being able to stay over and work on things for a little while, so I was able to pull this particular coach over to the side and explain my situation in a little more detail about being offbalanced backward when going down low while trying to keep my back straight. He said, "Well, tori does have to lean forward to load the uke anyway, and if you have to lean even more forward to get him loaded, that might be what you need to do."

[Outis]

So you can't even get to B, I'm not talking about getting to C?

That's correct. Note that at B, the lifter's knees are well out in front of the tips of his toes. Let's imagine a position somewhere between A and B with the knees out no further than the tips of the toes. Now if the lifter's lower legs remain locked in that position with his torso remaining at the inclination of B or C as his thighs continue to move down to parallel, the broken lines representing the center of gravity will shift to the right, right out past his heels, and he'll fall over backwards. To keep those broken lines running through the arch of his feet, he'll have to incline his torso more forward than in B and C.

In my younger days, I was very much into barbell training and fairly well read on the biomechanics of the various exercises. I was acutely aware of the shortcomings of my natural squat posture and spent a lot of time in front of the mirror experimenting with foot placement and such to try to improve it. I found that going to a slightly wider stance with a shim of plywood under my heels helped a little. I also limited my range of motion by not going below parallel, and I avoided maximum attempts and stuck to sets of high reps. (And if you ask exercise physiologists today how someone with ankle dorsiflexion problems should go about doing squats, you'll hear things like "wider stance," "elevated heels," and "don't go below parallel.") In spite of these precautions, however, I had my back go out at the bottom of my last rep of my last set during a workout, had to drop the barbell with a crash onto the gym floor, and had to endure some wonderfully exquisite pain. So that's why I decided to switch to leg presses.

[Outis]

It might be tight hamstrings and lower back, but that's just a guess.

In one of my university PE classes, we worked on stretches, including the one where you sit on the floor with your legs spread and bend forward as far as you can; I got to where I could touch my forehead to the floor. Even as old as I am now, I can still touch my toes when we do the hurdler's stretch in judo class. I'm pretty sure this wasn't a hamstring issue.

You can also do a "three-step" seoi. You do a normal two-step seoi and then take third step backward and between uke's legs. You end up in a split lunge stance (it can be very shallow) and that shifts the flexion to your knees rather than ankles. That eventually progresses to the one-step version Travis does.

Thanks, I'll experiment with that.

[BKR]

Take away the barbell or take away the uke and the problem is still there for me. Here's what happens when I go into a squat position: For a very short distance, I go down with my back straight and my knees and ankles flexing. At the point my ankles stop flexing, my torso starts inclining forward as my knees continue to flex. This forward inclination is what allows me to keep my balance; if I try to continue down with my back straight, my center of gravity starts shifting back to my heels, and if I keep going down that way I'll end up toppling over backwards.

OK, I get it now. I used to have a similar problem when I first started doing squats. You will need to work on your flexibility.

From a Judo point of view, that sort of problem is not as serious as you might think. You will need to work on your flexability for sure, as that is part of the issue. I had the same problem with squats when I first started lifting seriously my senior year in high school (for Judo).

1.) Doing a forward judo throw with both feet on the floor, say, O Goshi, Seoi Nage, Tsurikomi Goshi for example, is different than doing a barbell squat.

2.) In the Judo throw, it does not matter if you heels come off the floor, unlike in a barbell squat. In fact, in a Judo throw, your weight should be on the ball of your foot anyway, not flat footed as in a squat.

3.) On much shorter uke, it's simply more difficult to do uchikomi, particularly static uchikomi, in the throws and those similar as listed under (1). It is easier to do moving uchikomi, even easier to do moving nagekomi (throwing). In fact, uchikomi are, in general, harder to do correctly than actually throwing uke, period, regardless of the throw.

4.) Moreover, you may well be doing the uchikomi incorrectly, trying to lift/load uke incorrectly, usually involves stepping into uke closely and trying to lift, rather than moving your body to the front of uke, lowering your weight (harder on shorter uke), tipping uke, and finishing the rest of the mechanics of the specific throw.

So, to sum up, work on your flexibility, and make sure the mechanics of your judo are correct, and realize that shorter uke and throws like seoi nage, o goshi, etc, are more difficult.

*edit* For a forward throw, you will be "losing" your balance to your front anyway as part of the throwing process, so your heels coming up is not an issue, in fact, you will have more mobility and better control of your balance that way. Forward throws are not about lifting and dropping uke (a common mistake).

Ben

[BKR]

Yeh... if he can't do a standard seoi nage, he sure as hell isn't going to be able to do that.


Don't you think its a waste of your practice time trying and failing to get down low to throw someone who's so significantly shorter than you that you'd never try that throw on them in randori?

Just do another throw, if your coach asks what you're doing just tell them 'There's no way I can do that throw on them, they're too short' or just make up a shoulder injury.


So you can't even get to B, I'm not talking about getting to C?

Well, "B" is quite often sufficient, maybe a little lower, I'd say under normal circumstances (basic Judo) it's not often one needs to get to even a parallel squat position.

Weight lifting and Judo are fundamentally different activities, although of course weight lifting can be helpful to one's judo.

Ben