11/21/2002 7:03pm, #21
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
You said that strikers are experts at controlling the distance/space and grapplers are not. I disagreed and responded why.
Distance control is one of the biggest reasons why trained grapplers can nullify a striking attack. Using timing effectively by causing him to overextend a swing, capitalize on his poor position, or simply moving in and jamming the opponent while deflecting strikes are all tactics that fighters use to initiate the clinch and groundfighting.
You are right about strikers training specifically against going to the ground. Look at Chuck Lidell and his sucesses. He is outstanding at preventing takedowns and getting back to his feet when he's there.
How does he do it? He trains in grappling, the only real way to neutralize a grappler.
11/21/2002 7:06pm, #22
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
Brandiesansoo- Sounds like you described running away. Not a bad idea in a life-or-death confrontation.
11/21/2002 9:15pm, #23
Grapplers are only effective at grappling range and maybe trapping range (due to joint locks, standing grappling, etc).
I said grapplers weren't experts at controlling space because they're only effective at one out of 4 ranges, and their objective with takedowns, entrances, clinches, etc. is to get into that range. You have to be in grappling range to go for a sub, the grappler's main weapon, that's how it is.
Smart strikers know this, and can keep enough distance when they're not attacking to the point where they have enough reaction time to evade or throw a strike in response (not to say responding strikes are all-effective, but it's an option). Conversely, they can also strike well enough to put their opponents on the defensive, partially jamming them and taking away takedown options, until it gets too hot and they can pull back.
You're right that overextending swings, holding poor positions, and other such follies by strikers leave them wide open to takedowns. The reason so many striking specialists kept doing things like that, especially in the early UFCs is, they tend to practice all-striking and spar in a striking ruleset.
Little **** mistakes in a striking match that could only cost you a point turn into deep **** mistakes against a grappler who can turn them into subs in the blink of an eye.
This is why I'm with people who say sparring and fighting need to have less rules; when you spar and fight with only Kyokushin rules or only K-1 rules, you're going to learn to exploit them and let slip mistakes that don't mean anything, but when you go NHB, the same rules aren't there anymore and the same mistakes will cost you against opponents who spar with less restrictions.
Even if you say you have to study grappling to be effective against it, that still doesn't mean that you have to work at your next belt in BJJ 4 hours a day or learn a whole shitload of subs, sweeps, and whatnot that you're never going to use since you're a striker anyway.
You're going to want to learn to defend against subs and how to escape disadvantaged positions, and that's not going to require or be served well by a 50:50 attack/defense ratio, maybe a 20:80 ratio would be better.
Again, it boils down to semantics: At the grappling range, all techniques are "grappling", but a fighter doing "grappling" to escape/be able to strike is "anti-grappling", the same fighter also doign "grappling" in order to go for a sub is doing "grappling" proper.
Can't say I see much neutral ground in this, looks like an "agree to disagree" situation.
Also, Peedee: I'd be able to answer better if you clarified what exactly you meant by "what you're talking about", but 125-pound women in self-defense situations can apply the space control aspect of anti-grappling, and many do with natural aplomb (which refers back to what I said about the basic defenses in the four ranges being 'natural').
First in self-defense is awareness, so if they're aware of a suspicious person, then comes space control-- escape if they're approached, keep a distance if that's what would be appropriate.
I'm not implying a woman should wait for an attacker to shoot so she can sprawl, that would be asinine, since with a sprawl you're trying to maintain contact with your opponent and defend successfully without backing up, where a woman's objective in SD would be to escape, which is contrary to all that.
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11/21/2002 9:52pm, #24
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
Mercurius- I agree with that last post 100% I don't give a crap about semantics. This part of that post of yours was the best....
"Little **** mistakes in a striking match that could only cost you a point turn into deep **** mistakes against a grappler who can turn them into subs in the blink of an eye."
11/21/2002 10:18pm, #25
donkey: Actually I was referring to climbing into a tank. That 6 feet of reinforced steel works well against grapplers.
11/22/2002 3:20am, #269chambersGuest
I have managed to keep my distance from grapplers fairly successful. Of course I cross-train. But if a guy is someone I don't want to grapple with then I can keep him at bay.
Extend both arms. Keep them moving slightly. If he doesn't see a good opening low he might won't risk shooting. He will try to lock up and clinch. Extend your arms in front of you so you are ready to push his head and shoulders if he shoots low or strike if he comes in high.
Keep your elbows bent at least 45 degrees so you can pull back when he tries to grab your wrists.
Keep a low stance (not kung fu horse stance low, just standard wrestling stance low) and keep your knees bent. ALWAYS face him in a front guard stance. Stay on the balls of your feet (ready to sprawl) with your legs under your butt as opposed to under your arms and shoulders. Shift your weight back forward and back. Keep stepping. NEVER plant your weight on one leg. Circle so you are always facing him.
Hunch your back and shoot your hips back as you jab at his eyes and push at his head and shoulders if he shoots low. Keep those legs back out of range. Sprawl if he gets in but not all the way to the ground unless he fully commits first. Push him under if he goes low. Control the head.
If he comes in high, then push his arms and chest and throw low kicks to his groin or knees and immediately return to your stance. Push when you need to but don't let him get a good grasp on your arms at any time. Strike to break that up.
Use the kicks as deversions to pull away from him. Close and strike if you see an opening. Wear him down.
Of course I learned all of this as a wrestler so .. um whatever.
11/22/2002 10:00am, #27
&gt;So Mercurius, your saying that a 125lbs woman could perform "anti Grappling" as well? The only person who might be able to do what your talking about is a powerful man with years of training. Its not a viable option for 90% of the world.
Exactly, but I would say higher than 90%
Someone ban that fucking troll Jamoke.
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11/24/2002 5:36am, #28
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
Is there anyone else in WC/WT/VT who's attempting to address groundfighting as seriously as Boztepe?
11/24/2002 7:11am, #299chambersGuest
No, and you've got to respect him for that .. I guess. Good point.