The Worst Techniques I've Ever Been Taught

**afronaut** · Posted On: 1/11/2005 9:25am

Originally Posted by Jolly_Roger

Defense against takedown = Kiai scream (no, really. It seems that it should give you a different density, so you'll weight more...sometimes, I think some people gets their MA theory straight from a 50's issue of Batman)

Actually, I was in a judo class with the crazy old dude who used to compete a lot when he was a lad in Japan, who said that the kiai was great in tournaments. He said that people get so wound up and focused and uptight that if you are jockeying for grips and position and you can't get in, do this ...

(screams like a loonball)

... If they aren't expecting it and have a "what the ****?!?!?!" reaction, there's your opening and WHAM!

So DAMN!!! Stop hatin' on the kiai, dizzle.

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 1/12/2005 3:53am

Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity

X block follow up.

Stop attack, seize wrist with right hand, pull through and under your left arm, lean back and place your weight on their arm violently. This will jack up their arm. (Or make them eat dirt, at the very least.)

Edited to add: Image lifted from the the VArmouries translation of Fiore. http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore

So you stop the attack in the crux of the X of your forearms, then, with kind of a downward shrugging motion you move your hands down, running the right one up the arm and the left one down it, leaving you with a standing armbar type thing . . . with your arms crossed?

Or arms crossed, right arm toward you, you stop the attack in the crux of your xed arms, then like the right hand down the arm to the wrist, moving the left hand out from under their arm and dragging them into an armlock?

That makes a little more sense, but it still seems like you're folding up your hands and getting set to take a knife blow...also, the idea that you're only going to get a shallow cut on your arms seems predicated on the knife being held a very specific way....

I don't think this is a practical technique. It doesn't seem any more likely to land you in a good hold then blocking with one hand and trying to take their wrist...but it offers more risk...

Incidentally, earlier today, someone who really loves how the x-block looks tried to tell me it was a good defense against a baseball bat swung downward at the head :shock:

**Anna Kovacs** · Posted On: 1/13/2005 7:17pm

Well you're not so much sitting there waiting for the strike. It's a very agressive defense. If your hand goes high and I "read" that you're going to strike from there I rush against you as you strike. Rather then throwing my arms up and waiting for it, in my experiance knife sparring is very pre-emptive. You have to be a fairly aggressive or you'll be decieved by feints.

Anyways; At the instant you feel their arm against yours you react or they'll fly off and attack somewhere else. When I do the X I do it with my right wrist in front (Closest to them) When you feel them turn your hand inwards and grab their wrist to prevent them from flying off.

Now the cool thing about this grip is that their blade will be on back the back of your right wrist and will be somewhat flat, hence why they will lack edge alignment to really cut you more then superficially. In addition to this your wrist positioned between their hand hand and blade will cause them to lose a lot of control over the knife (and their arm...for that matter) due to your stronger leverage.

Having grabbed their wrist you pull it down towards your right hip as you turn, and add your left hand to the grip as you fall back onto their arm.

Thats how you do it. I think you might be misinterpretting it . Basically he's positioning dudes elbow under his armpit and violently falling back onto it for an instant break, not a lock.

In simpler terms
You want to do the X at their wrist, right arm closest to them, then you turn your hand slightly to grab their wrist. Secure it with your left hand as you position it under your arm, fall back onto it and break the arm.

As for getting cut, they will not have the edge alignment to really cut you, the flat of their blade will be on your wrist, edge contact is fairly incedental. In the scuffling you might get cut if their edge turns somewhat and digs into your wrist but one thing to keep in mind is that getting even a decently severe cut to the back of your wrist cut isnt very much of an issue when your main objective is defending your life.

Grabbing with one hand is admittedly used much more often. I think the main advantage of the X block is that it provides more area to "catch" but comes with disadvantages in that it involves using both your hands and makes counter attacking diffacult.

The plus side is that it flows very nicely into this and some other pretty cool stuff.

I dont use the X block often in knife sparring, but I can make it work ok.

Probably not against a baseball bat..however... ;)

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

So you stop the attack in the crux of the X of your forearms, then, with kind of a downward shrugging motion you move your hands down, running the right one up the arm and the left one down it, leaving you with a standing armbar type thing . . . with your arms crossed?

Or arms crossed, right arm toward you, you stop the attack in the crux of your xed arms, then like the right hand down the arm to the wrist, moving the left hand out from under their arm and dragging them into an armlock?

That makes a little more sense, but it still seems like you're folding up your hands and getting set to take a knife blow...also, the idea that you're only going to get a shallow cut on your arms seems predicated on the knife being held a very specific way....

I don't think this is a practical technique. It doesn't seem any more likely to land you in a good hold then blocking with one hand and trying to take their wrist...but it offers more risk...

Incidentally, earlier today, someone who really loves how the x-block looks tried to tell me it was a good defense against a baseball bat swung downward at the head :shock:

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 1/14/2005 2:28am

OK, but aren't you bulling up into them, then stopping your momentum and pulling them forward/ outward? I guess I don't see the advantage to doing this with two hands . . .

And if your right arm is closest to them, how do you secure the wrist with your left arm? If your right arm is grabbing their wrist, what's your left hand doing to help? Closing around the blade? Do you move your left hand around the gripping right hand and secure their elbow with it?

Re:edge position, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you better lock the **** out of that wrist . . . can't they just turn the knife a few degrees and hook it into your arm the second you grab their arm? What if they make a tiny adjustment and just target your hands during the "X" portion, which still seems very static to me...

Are you saying you just grab their arm with both hands at once?

**Anna Kovacs** · Posted On: 1/14/2005 4:17pm

You rush in, block, and in the same instant that you block the attack grab and tear their arm down to your side. It's actually pretty fast and fluid.

There probably isnt a reason you couldnt do it with only one hand. Most of the catches I do are with my left hand and I see no reason why you couldnt do just as well with the right. There are techniques where having two hands up doing the blocking is important for the follow up. I think this one would work somewhat with one hand, but probably better with two because your left hand is further securing the arm

Your right hand is the one doing the securing and pulling them down, your left hand will further secure it as you transition to pull the hand to hip level. I cant remember exactly where I put it, but I think I generally have it grabbing the thumb side of their hand (where the pommel of the knife would be) This would lessen their range of motion with the knife even further and prevent them from slipping out.

When you transition and start pulling them down to your hip, the leverage of your wrist will force the blade of their knife up, and their thumb towards the ground. You dont have to actively do this, it will just happen as you pull their arm into position.

There are a couple important things to keep in mind about getting cut:

The first one is a cut on the arm is not a big deal when compared to getting stabbed. You're much more likely do die from getting stabbed in the neck/torso then you are from cutting cut on the arm.

The second one is that knives aren't light sabres or chainsaws. Placing the edge isnt enough to make an effective cut. You have to have good edge alignment, a good solid draw or push that stays on target for the time of the cut. This is very hard to accomplish when your wrist is being controlled and the blade of the knife is in the position I am talking about.

In addition to that, most modern knives are single edged and will probably be used with the edge facing outwards towards the opponent, hence the spine of the blade will be what is against your wrist for the most part.

As for what if they target your hands...eh I find it unlikely that they will be able to redirect a truly commited attack in time to change the target like that. Commitment is everything in knife sparring. A lot of people have a tendency to fall into a game of "knife tag" where the first touch wins so they make lots of snippy little cuts and thrusts that are almost impossible to stop. Commited attacks are differant, they're a lot harder to suddenly change the direction of.

Anyways, we could play what if all day, what if they feint a knife attack and then kick you in the groin? ;) You simply do what you can to stay alive., obviously nothing is fool proof.

Like I said, the X is not static, you are actively rushing against them with it as soon as you see them going high. The X isnt going to be there for more then a split second. Aggressiveness is the key in making any of this **** work.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

OK, but aren't you bulling up into them, then stopping your momentum and pulling them forward/ outward? I guess I don't see the advantage to doing this with two hands . . .

And if your right arm is closest to them, how do you secure the wrist with your left arm? If your right arm is grabbing their wrist, what's your left hand doing to help? Closing around the blade? Do you move your left hand around the gripping right hand and secure their elbow with it?

Re:edge position, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you better lock the **** out of that wrist . . . can't they just turn the knife a few degrees and hook it into your arm the second you grab their arm? What if they make a tiny adjustment and just target your hands during the "X" portion, which still seems very static to me...

Are you saying you just grab their arm with both hands at once?

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 1/15/2005 4:02am

I guess I'd have to see a video of it. . .or maybe it's the strike this is being used against I'm not clear on. . .

**Anna Kovacs** · Posted On: 1/15/2005 2:35pm

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

I guess I'd have to see a video of it. . .or maybe it's the strike this is being used against I'm not clear on. . .

I'll try and get a video of it when i'm at class tomorrow.

**Ninjer** · Posted On: 1/15/2005 2:39pm

haha, i've never been taught a superbly inefficient technique, but i've seen one, of a tkd "pro" that counters a guy with a gun by doing a 720 spin kick in the air.

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 1/16/2005 2:50am

Damn. Sounds like if he had a counter-roter on his rear fuselage, he'd just be able to life off and fly over the gunfire.

**Trinity** · Posted On: 1/30/2005 8:48am

Hey, here's one I missed.

Standing in a straight line when blocking a punch instead of evading or rolling to the side. Yes, really, I had to condition myself to do this to get my 5th Kyu. Assume someone is throwing a robotic body shot, stand in the way of it and do a Soto-Uke. The exact words were 'don't step out, stay in your 'trams'' that's what Sensei calls it, you know, the analogy of a railway line. Right...

I walk past pissed 6ft 6in caveman. 6ft 6in caveman demands 'What are you looking at?' I remember my perfect, textbook, 10 out of 10, A+ karate moves, I feel supremely confident, so I answer 'I don't know, they don't put labels on shite.' He gets pissed off and throws a punch. Now, what did I learn in karate school? Ah, yes. Soto Uke. Now, I can't dodge and I can't roll to the side, that would be naughty and I wouldn't get my gold star for traditional karate, so I employ soto uke head on which requires physical strength. He's 270lbs, I'm 5'7 and 122lbs, fucking useless. Fist penetrates my solar plexus, yeerkkk lacerating pain, waves of pain sucking the life out of me, my aggression and determination forced out of me like an obscene soulful excrement, referred visceral pain asphyxiating me, CRAP I THINK I'M DYING....

*Doleful Rachmaninov symphony as Trinity crumples to the pavement puking up blood*

Sinking into apathy and asthenia and spirals of depression...my faith is gone, there is no karate and no purpose and no God...MY SKIN IS GONE TO POWDER BLOOD BOILED DRY, IN THE CLEAN ACID OF THE DESERT, GONNA DIE...

And I got my 5th Kyu for that. Some people have weird values.