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  1. EnragedChewtoy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2011 7:48am


     Style: recovering krotty LARPer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very good info on this thread. I've recently started sparring again (karate), and am collecting a fair amount of heavy bruising, more concentrated on forearms and shins. Basically I'm a marshmallow.

    So my n00b questions for Dale, SifuJason - or anyone else who actually knows what they're talking about - are these: is it ok to do Ta San Sing conditioning daily? And as for the bruised areas, is it ok to condition these too using this method (so long as I do the conditioning as recommended - that is, not be stupid and bash at myself)?
  2. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2011 10:17am


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would go one day on, one day off to start with, and build up from there. You can do it daily, but you may not heal fast enough. Part of conditioning is an adaptive healing process, so you want to let you body have a chance to do that.
  3. DarkPhoenix is offline
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    I feel like you eyeballin' me, dawg!

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2011 2:27pm

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     Style: Judo, JJJ, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is a great thread.

    Now, coming from a Japanese/Korean striking art background, we did a lot of makiwara training.

    Do you guys see this as something that should be done after the basic conditioning that Dale had put out? Or should it be not done at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Moment View Post
    BJJ JOE: I'm going to make hate to you. Right here, right now.
    ... Ohhhhhhhh, I'm going to make hate to you so hard that your kinfolk back in Africa will feel it.l
    Quote Originally Posted by Archer
    Karate is the Dane Cook of martial arts
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2011 3:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: (Hung Ga+BJJ+MT+JKD) ^ Qi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EnragedChewtoy View Post
    is it ok to do Ta San Sing conditioning daily? And as for the bruised areas, is it ok to condition these too using this method (so long as I do the conditioning as recommended - that is, not be stupid and bash at myself)?
    Here's a noob's opinion on ta san sing (da saam sing):

    Early on, daily is not going to be a great idea. It's a very painful exercise, especially while you're doing it. If you don't, as SifuJason pointed out, take time to heal yourself while learning this, you'll just end up injuring yourself.

    I think watching this video, you'll see why. This is how you get that elusive, real gong fu though...worth every bruise, wince, and yelp.



    Later on, it gets easier. I wince less now...

    From about two years of doing this, I've found I don't bruise nearly as much as when I started. In fact the worst bruising was with the first 3-4 times I did it. My forearms were black for a week, then healed.

    Now when I do this exercise (by myself or with partners) I get small spotty bruises instead of large, forearm-spanning ones. These heal within a few days.

    The jow/liniments truly do help with both the pain and the healing.

    I personally apply jow liberally both before and after saam sing.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/18/2011 3:24pm at .
  5. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2011 6:23pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Makiwara training is okay, but I am not a fan of it. Sure you can toughen your knuckles, but your metacarpals will still break if you hit someone solid somewhere hard...
  6. chran is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2011 7:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Let me know how I can be of service.
    Your conditioning methods are strangely similar to what I've learnt many moons ago (replace copper cable with rattan & wiffle stick with bamboo). Can you recommend a trainer in Melbourne, Australia?
  7. Mor Sao is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2011 6:21am

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     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Chran,

    You can contact my kung fu brother Shifu Garry Hearfield in Sydney. Sorry but I do not know anyone in Melbourne.

    Though I did live in Mackay in Queensland as an exchange student in 1984. That was a long time ago......

    You can contact Shifu Hearfield at burningpalmsystem@gmail.com







  8. chran is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2011 8:46am

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     Style: Kuntao/Silat

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Chran,
    You can contact Shifu Hearfield
    Thank you. Will see if Shifu Hearfield can recommend someone in Melbourne.
  9. EnragedChewtoy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 4:49am


     Style: recovering krotty LARPer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks SifuJason and W.Rabbit for your replies. I'll take your advice and be sensible about forming a conditioning routine - will also scout about town for an appropriate liniment (and will apply before as well as after conditioning).

    DarkPhoenix mentioning makiwara training has, along with the information on this thread, given me a 'light bulb' moment. Back when I started krotty, a lot of the more gung ho fellas I trained with were not only mad on the makiwara board, but would bash at their shins with short but heavy thick planks of wood. The shin bash was optional, and I weaseled out of it and stuck to bag work (felt a bit wussy about it at the time, but am now grateful for my younger wussiness. I also favoured bag work and seiken press-ups to makiwara for hands - having small 16 year old chick mitts the makiwara hurt, which is fine but it didn't hurt in a good, beneficial way if that makes sense).

    One young black belt guy in particular was especially keen on the shin-bash. Many years later this same guy (yondan at this stage) broke his tibia whilst sparring another bloke going for his nidan. And the guy going for his nidan was stuffed during the spar, it was at the latter part of his grading so he was knackered, wasn't blocking or kicking that hard (I'd just sparred him prior so know how tired he was). At the time I thought the yondan guy getting his tibia broken was just a freak accident, but now I suspect it was largely due to those earlier years of crazy conditioning (there was no gradual progression with conditioning, just bash bash bash from the outset with heavy planks, be a hero and show how tuff you are - until some weary nidan busts yer bones with a tap).
  10. Fish Of Doom is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2011 5:11am


     Style: Karate, mostly.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EnragedChewtoy View Post
    One young black belt guy in particular was especially keen on the shin-bash. Many years later this same guy (yondan at this stage) broke his tibia whilst sparring another bloke going for his nidan. And the guy going for his nidan was stuffed during the spar, it was at the latter part of his grading so he was knackered, wasn't blocking or kicking that hard (I'd just sparred him prior so know how tired he was). At the time I thought the yondan guy getting his tibia broken was just a freak accident, but now I suspect it was largely due to those earlier years of crazy conditioning (there was no gradual progression with conditioning, just bash bash bash from the outset with heavy planks, be a hero and show how tuff you are - until some weary nidan busts yer bones with a tap).
    yeah, that's kind like the rolling pin on the shins thing. thing is, bones are porous, not solid, and what supports the bone when under pressure is that inner porous structure. if you want to condition it via impact, you need to make sure the force of the impact reaches this porous core, else all you're doing is creating bone overgrowths on the outside, which do nothing at all for the long bone's resistance to breaking. even with proper gradual progression, hitting your long bones with stiff objects will do nothing for you in terms of improving resistance to impact. this is why people use the heavy bag, as it allows for stress deformation and also moves, which spreads the force of the impact. the makiwara works on a similar principle, but with a few fundamental differences: one is that basic makiwara punching causes joint compression, as the basic tsuki is a linear, penetrative movement, therefore if you do not graduate the strike intensity very carefully, and just go nuts on it, you are going to **** up your arm joints massively. and the other one is that the normal "board" makiwara is not primarily a conditioning tool (the wall-mounted ones even less so as they have less give), but rather a power generation training tool for isolated basic karate techniques. the conditioning is a side-effect of the repeated impact, and it's only after years of training that you get to the point where you can just bash away at it like you see many people doing (and even then you have to factor in the padding on the impact zone, the type of wood, how it's mounted on the floor, etc). hell, i'm guilty as charge of having gone apeshit on a makiwara, myself, but i'm not stupid either, i stopped when hurt or when my skin breaks, i occasionally did it with wrapped hands, and i even ended up getting a custom made striking pad for mine.
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