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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2011 3:04pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To be fair, it was phrased as a question not a statement:
    That was immediately answered in the continuing post.

    Then he goes on to support the argument/question with a supposition of violence and different time periods.If you take the entire post and sum it up it is basically, "I feel that the BJJ/MMA Fad is moving us away from the essence of self defense" argument.

    That's why I said this:
    Good lord how many more "Bjj/MMA fad" trolls are we going to get this summer? No, I don't care if he joined in 2004. Seven years later only an idiot would still be saying fad.
    This exact "fad" argument exists among TMAers. I remember it vividly in 1993 and I used to say it as well. 18 year later is is trolling.
  2. SpinKiK is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2011 3:43pm


     Style: Karate

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Then he goes on to support the argument/question with a supposition of violence and different time periods.If you take the entire post and sum it up it is basically, "I feel that the BJJ/MMA Fad is moving us away from the essence of self defense" argument. .
    WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! Those were two completely different arguments I made that you just put together. If anything, in 50 years MMA schools could end up being the only place you could go for quality self defense instruction. I don't blame BJJ/MMA for taking the focus away from self defense. If anything, it's a change in our culture and what we value that is responsible.
  3. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2011 3:44pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    I challenge you to provide any kind of evidence that non-worked professional wrestling was mainstream.
    We know the following:
    • Professional wrestling matches regularly made the front page of newspapers' sports section.
    • Several notable people, such as Teddy Roosevelt, followed professional wrestling.
    • Several champions, such as Frank Gotch, Joe Stecher, Ed Lewis, and Georg Hackenschmidt captured the public eye.
    • The appeal and purse was big enough to incentivize wrestlers to travel around the world.
    • The Ring used to cover professional wrestling until its legitimacy came into question.


    To me, this sounds like a sport with mass appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    But they are definitely suffering a huge exodus of fans in favor of MMA right now and that trend is likely to continue for quite some time.
    As more international champions gain championships, worldwide appeal for boxing has increased -- not decreased. Even so, it is arguable if the demographics of boxing's and MMA's fanbase align.

    As for pro wrestling, while I agree that there is demographic alignment, one should never forget that pro wrestling is a performance art while MMA is a combat sport. Audience expectations towards the two are quite different. The drop in pro wrestling's popularity could have as much to do with lack of competition between wrestling promotions as much as competition from MMA.
    Last edited by atomicpoet; 7/14/2011 3:48pm at .
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2011 4:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    If anything, it's a change in our culture and what we value that is responsible.
    Well then we can argue semantics, but I won't. I disagree with this vehemently. We are more worried and paranoid about violence now, country wide, than just your example of NYC in the seventies and eighties.
  5. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2011 4:34pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    We know the following:
    • Professional wrestling matches regularly made the front page of newspapers' sports section.
    • Several notable people, such as Teddy Roosevelt, followed professional wrestling.
    • Several champions, such as Frank Gotch, Joe Stecher, Ed Lewis, and Georg Hackenschmidt captured the public eye.
    • The appeal and purse was big enough to incentivize wrestlers to travel around the world.
    • The Ring used to cover professional wrestling until its legitimacy came into question.


    To me, this sounds like a sport with mass appeal.



    As more international champions gain championships, worldwide appeal for boxing has increased -- not decreased. Even so, it is arguable if the demographics of boxing's and MMA's fanbase align.

    As for pro wrestling, while I agree that there is demographic alignment, one should never forget that pro wrestling is a performance art while MMA is a combat sport. Audience expectations towards the two are quite different. The drop in pro wrestling's popularity could have as much to do with lack of competition between wrestling promotions as much as competition from MMA.
    I'm not entirely certain I'm ready to give in on the word Mainstream just yet, but I will certainly agree that wrestling had a higher profile than MMA currently does as regards to media coverage. I think that might have more to do with the way sports were covered during the time period than with how popular the sport actually was across the country.

    I think there is a large demographic alignment between boxing fans and MMA fans unless boxing fans are watching boxing for a reason other than seeing two people fight to determine which is the better fighter. I'm sure there is a core of boxing fans that are so anti-grappling that they will never move to MMA, but it's still going to cost boxing a large number of fans over the next couple of decades. Especially as the younger generation that grew up without MMA being stigmatized become sports fans. It's going to be hard to convince them that Boxing represents the ultimate expression of combat sports when you hold it up against MMA.
  6. doofaloofa is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2011 4:42pm


     Style: mma

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    In the future Martial arts will go in one of two directions

    a) MMA will progres to become a Death Sport where futuristic gladiators fight to the bitter bloody end. No quarter will be asked for and none shall be given. (Sponsered by McDonalds)

    b)In the post apocalyptic hell we have created only those that know THE DEADLY will survive to pass the sacred knowlege on to thier decendants. No quarter shall be asked for and none shall be given (Sponsered by BurgerKing)
  7. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2011 5:37pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    I think there is a large demographic alignment between boxing fans and MMA fans unless boxing fans are watching boxing for a reason other than seeing two people fight to determine which is the better fighter.
    There are, in fact, many reasons people watch boxing -- but here's some food for thought.

    Holmes-Cooney was the biggest PPV of the early 80s, far eclipsing any of the Four Kings big fights. The reason for this was simple. Cooney was a white American, and for the first time in 23 years, a Caucasian had the chance to become heavyweight champion. While few thought he would win the championship, hopes were high enough that it became one of the biggest events in boxing during the 80s.

    Then in the 90s, Eastern Europeans began their steady ascent in the heavyweight division, to such an extent that today seven of the top 10 heavyweights are from Eastern Europe. By the way, two of them are Europeans from elsewhere (Haye, Helenius). Chambers is the lone top 10 American, although some people make a case for Arreola.

    In Europe, especially Eastern Europe, boxing is massively popular. In North America, not so much -- since Americans are no longer as competitive.

    However, Klitschko-Haye received a lot of worldwide attention, with each fighter receiving $24 million for that fight. The fight was one of the few heavyweight bouts broadcast on HBO this year. It made the front page of several newspapers.

    Now, why was this? It was because David Haye was a "good enough" native English speaker who North Americans could easily identify with. If Haye beat Klitschko, boxing's glamour division would no longer look so foreign.

    TL;DR What I'm getting at here is part of boxing's appeal is (for better or worse) tied to ethnic pride. When Americans do well, boxing does well in North America. When it doesn't, people tend to moan.

    There's other thoughts I have about this topic, but that's an essay for another time.
  8. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2011 8:19am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I understand your point, but I also point to the fact that Boxing as an acceptable sport is much much older in the US and most of the rest of the world than MMA is. As MMA matures and the fan base increases that kind of nationalistic competitive spirit will attach to it as well. Already Brazil has a lot of national pride tied up in their guys being champions. And frankly I believe that a large part of Brock Lesnar's popularity as HW Champ came from this kind of sentiment. Americans saw a big, country, white as whitebread guy on top of the sport and it pulled them in.

    I believe that all of your points will come to apply to MMA over time as the sport grows and matures.
  9. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2011 1:34pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

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    I think you make several interesting points, and if I'm not careful, I could probably go off on a long essay with each of them. Here's my thoughts on each of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    I understand your point, but I also point to the fact that Boxing as an acceptable sport is much much older in the US and most of the rest of the world than MMA is.
    Yes and no. MMA, as a ruleset, is definitely new -- but in spirit, CACC was the MMA of its day. When the Great Gama travelled to Britain, wrestlers adapted and began including Pehlwani techniques. Ad Santel travelled to Japan and battled Tokugoro Ito.

    Perhaps the reasons Catch wrestlers have done so well in MMA is because much of this has already been done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    As MMA matures and the fan base increases that kind of nationalistic competitive spirit will attach to it as well. Already Brazil has a lot of national pride tied up in their guys being champions.
    Vale Tudo has been around since the 1920s, so national pride isn't a new thing with this. One of the more famous practitioners is the Gracie Family.

    Japan has had a keen interest in MMA due to the cross-pollination of catch wrestling and judo.

    The precedence was the match between Ad Santel and Tokugoro Ito, was revived when Karl Gotch moved to Japan, and received publicity with Antonio Inoki's challenge of other martial artists (including a woefully horrible match with Muhammad Ali). Shooto, as many know, was one of the pioneering organizations of MMA.

    Few other countries have as much national pride in MMA as Brazil, Japan, and USA. For good reason too, since MMA has an arguably long history in those respective nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    And frankly I believe that a large part of Brock Lesnar's popularity as HW Champ came from this kind of sentiment. Americans saw a big, country, white as whitebread guy on top of the sport and it pulled them in.
    You are correct, but this goes back to point I made earlier about demographic alignment. Typically, people in America who enjoy ice hockey do not enjoy NASCAR (and vice versa). In much the same way, people who enjoy wrestling to not enjoy boxing.

    Boxing appeals to African Americans, Latinos, and historically immigrant communities (Irish, Italians, etc.). It is popular in places like New York, Boston, Philadelphia -- and other multicultural places where ethnic pride is on the line.

    Wrestling, especially the collegiate variety -- which incidentally was born from Catch wrestling -- is popular in Middle America. Look at the NCAA powerhouses, and where are they located?

    Look at Brock Lesnar. He was born in a small town in Middle America, and he lives in a small town in Middle America. He was a collegiate wrestling star as well as a WWE star.

    When Brock Lesnar won the HW championship of UFC, that was seen as a victory for a distinctly American tradition that often doesn't get celebrated. It's a tradition much of Middle America puts pride in that gets ignored elsewhere. Brock Lesnar, in many casual fans eyes, legitimized old fashioned Middle American wrestling.
  10. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2011 2:02pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, I just draw a different conclusion from it I think.
    Sure the old CACC and Vale Tudo traditions existed, and even enjoyed some niche popularity, but this is the first time in modern history that something with an MMA like ruleset is becoming widely popular in a way that rivals other established sports.
    And again, as the sport grows I think it will appeal to those same immigrant communities. In fact, anyone that feels disenfranchised as a people should be attracted to fight sports. Where else do you get the potential opportunity to beat the holy **** out of some middle class white guy and not go to jail for it?

    The bottom line is that I agree with what you are saying, but I think that as the paychecks get bigger and we get some boxers crossing over to a sport where they can actually be THE world champion and more people who grew up with the idea of MMA as an acceptable sport enter the sport fan culture we'll see those same nationalistic sentiments from all of the same populations that you see them from in boxing.

    Just give it time. The modern sport is really only 15 years old, in 15 more years it's going to be much much larger than it is now.
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