Forcing a Turtle
Gentlemen, Ladies, and all in between;
side control(s) are great and all, but what are some ways to force a turtle...besides the front headlock drag down. What kids of techniques do you use, if any, from whatever position, to make your opponent turtle up?
I gots tons of subs for turtle, plus back-takes, but alot of people don't like to stay there for long. I want to force them back into it.
Helpz please. Gi or no gi. Theories, techniques, principles all welcome.
I'm willing to bet, as a Judo guy, I have more tools and have spent more time attacking the turtle than most BJJ players of comparable experience. But it's just not that easy to get BJJ guys to turtle compared to Judo guys (unless their name is Telles) and BJJ guys trained are not to hang out in turtle.
You can get guys to do turtle by almost passing, or by letting them roll up out of guard in attempt to stand up, for example. A failed double under hook pass often results in a turtle/sprawl. From standing in a gi, you can snap guys down to their knees. If you have good tachi waza you manipulate them to their knees in other ways.
The only way to get an experienced grappler to turtle on you is to put them in a situation where turtling becomes their least worst option.
This is not very easy to do.
Go for the kimura a lot of people tend to turtle to try to get out, especially if they are larger than you.
I've got a pretty tight side control, so like judoka_uk was saying, turtling away from me is their least bad option. You can always help them along with a knee in the back, stacking them up on their side. Like you're setting up for an armbar or bow-and-arrow choke.
I'm also fair-to-moderately-proficient at stuffing takedowns, so I get the turtle off of that a lot, as well.
I bait the 'roll over' 2 main ways:
- Transition to north/south, I grip their right sleeve with my right hand, and then underhook their left arm with my left arm and cup their armpit. By lifting up a bit, this 'encourages' them to roll over. I use this to setup a crucifix (sleeve grip stuffs their arm between legs, underhook glues them to my shoulder), rolling armbar, etc...
- From side control (my hips are on their left side), my left hand grips their left sleeve while my right arm underhooks their head and cups on top of their right shoulder. I then lift up a bit and straighten my right arm. Again, this encourages them to sit up or 'running man' escape.
I don't use these often on their own. I will use them on failed submission attempts to go with their momentum or to get them to change angles with their hips to open up something else for me.
Originally Posted by Killbot
You're asking how do turtle. You could argue that it's refinement, but I disagree with that assessment, and in this oh so tiny corner of the internet, that's all that matters*.
If your question involves asking how to perform a technique, post it in the Basic Technique forum. If you're asking how to refine a technique you can perform already, then it belongs in here, the Advanced Grappling Discussion forum, or AGD.
Below is a link to the stickie quoted,
*For those of you who are slow, I'm mocking myself.
Last edited by jnp; 7/14/2011 12:30am at .
In the gi you can just get double unders, grab their belt with both hands and explode up with your hips to throw them over into turtle. Bonus cool points if they get some air.
Originally Posted by Res Judicata
You can also force the turtle (or, more accurately, force a back take, do it right and they never really get to turtle tightly) lots off this kind of pass:
Watch the Mendes brothers, this is their bread and butter.
Cool. thanks man. I don't care where it ends up, I'm just curious to see wqhat perople can come up with. I felt it was a bit beyond "how do turtle" cause that subject itself is a bit beyond basic, but I'm hip.
Originally Posted by jnp
You didn't have to explain it to me. I bow to modpowerhammerbanarguepowersaw. :) thanks!
Style wise, I never roll with Judo guys, so I'm clueless. BJJ guys will turtle when they get tired. And alomst every wrestler prefers it to being under side control in my experience. (And they're programed not to worry much about subs in that position.)
I find that most BJJ guys I roll with rarely turn away from you from under side control. We're taught to turn in, shrimp and push and re-guard. When they do this, alot of times I can transition to North/south and they end up turtled because as they turn into me and I move it forces a face-to-face N/S and most guys just keep rolling over to get off their backs.
One other one I've used is to get a powerhalf from side control (neck lace I think some people call it). Some guys will turn away from the pressure to turtle . If you drive, you can usually drive them over to their knees. And some guys will try to roll back over their head and if you follow them and do a spin-over, you'll beat them to the "door" and you can haz top turtle.
Alot of goodies here so far, some obvious, some not so obvious.
Last edited by Killbot; 7/14/2011 8:14am at .
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