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  1. Sorekara is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 2:20pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Judo: Higher ranks leary of lower ranks?

    I've been training Judo and BJJ for about a year now. I'm only an orange belt in Judo, no rank in BJJ.

    (Questions at the bottom if you don't feel like reading.)

    Where I train most people don't seem to even want to know the names of newbies. Maybe that's understandable. There's been around 15 or so (atleast that I can remember) people that have left after a couple months just since I've been there. I've heard mentioned a few times they're afraid to work with white, yellow, and orange belts for fear of injury due to poor technique. That might be understandable too, most of them are national and world competitors.

    Needless to say, when I first started I felt less than welcome. It was hard enough for me in my mid 30's to get up the courage to step on the mat. Despite feeling very uncomfortable and awkward, I decided to stick with it. Learning Judo is something important for me and I intend on sticking it out regardless. Now a year later my team mates are starting to warm up a little. I'm one of only 3 lower ranks left, and the lowest rank adult that shows up religiously.

    Ne waza randori offers me no shortage of challengers. Nage waza often times leaves me with little options. I more than regularly am the odd man out and left standing like a moron just watching the action. Often times the higher ranks immediately rotate to other higher ranks. It really is embarrasing and I'm starting to get a little bit of a complex.

    I'm a fairly big guy, at 6'1" 200lbs. I'm very proficient at sucking in Judo and offer no challenges for higher ranks.

    Don't get me wrong, I've learned alot, and I'm thankfull for the people who take their time to work with me and teach me. No one is obligated to me at all.

    Long story sorry, and now to the question.

    Is it common for higher ranks to be afraid of injury and avoid randori with lower ranks?

    Is it common to be less than welcoming to beginners?
  2. CrackFox is offline
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 4:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorekara View Post
    Is it common for higher ranks to be afraid of injury and avoid randori with lower ranks?
    Yes, especially if they're big guys.

    Is it common to be less than welcoming to beginners?
    It happens. It shouldn't, but it does.
  3. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 4:41pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would say that these actions are within the range of normal. Really depends on the club though.

    Big noobs are not to be trusted when it comes to nage-waza. For me, they have to demonstrate a willingness to learn and cautiousness before I randori with them. I've been burned before.

    It's hard to constantly sacrifice time and energy onto people that may or may not stick around. In Judo you have to teach people to essentially crawl (ukemi) before they can walk (throw), and walk before they can run (randori); this is a process that takes a long time. In something like BJJ if you set a few ground rules you can have a beginner spar on their first or second day. It's a major time sacrifice and investment to teach people just the basics, and it can derail an entire class and take away talented instructors or upper-ranks from doing their own thing. It sucks, but it's the truth. When people show up for a couple of months religiously, they are worth the time.

  4. budochic is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 5:34pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kyokushin/Judo/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have had a completely different experience with judo. I have found the club very welcoming. I am a girl though so maybe that is the difference.
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 7:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorekara View Post
    I've been training Judo and BJJ for about a year now. I'm only an orange belt in Judo, no rank in BJJ.

    (Questions at the bottom if you don't feel like reading.)

    Where I train most people don't seem to even want to know the names of newbies. Maybe that's understandable. There's been around 15 or so (atleast that I can remember) people that have left after a couple months just since I've been there. I've heard mentioned a few times they're afraid to work with white, yellow, and orange belts for fear of injury due to poor technique. That might be understandable too, most of them are national and world competitors.

    Needless to say, when I first started I felt less than welcome. It was hard enough for me in my mid 30's to get up the courage to step on the mat. Despite feeling very uncomfortable and awkward, I decided to stick with it. Learning Judo is something important for me and I intend on sticking it out regardless. Now a year later my team mates are starting to warm up a little. I'm one of only 3 lower ranks left, and the lowest rank adult that shows up religiously.

    Ne waza randori offers me no shortage of challengers. Nage waza often times leaves me with little options. I more than regularly am the odd man out and left standing like a moron just watching the action. Often times the higher ranks immediately rotate to other higher ranks. It really is embarrasing and I'm starting to get a little bit of a complex.

    I'm a fairly big guy, at 6'1" 200lbs. I'm very proficient at sucking in Judo and offer no challenges for higher ranks.

    Don't get me wrong, I've learned alot, and I'm thankfull for the people who take their time to work with me and teach me. No one is obligated to me at all.

    Long story sorry, and now to the question.

    Is it common for higher ranks to be afraid of injury and avoid randori with lower ranks?

    Is it common to be less than welcoming to beginners?
    It sounds like you joined an established club with lots of higher skilled judoka but no one in charge of training beginners. That's a shame, as it's hard to integrate beginners into an established group of yudansha. It's not really fair to either group.

    To answer your question, the behavior is not out of the range of what I've seen happen.

    The best solution is to have a beginners class separate, or divide the class when both are present in the dojo.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. senseipookie is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 8:03pm


     Style: Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, my background is karate not judo, but it still pretty much equals out. I have had more injuries sparring with noobs than other black belts, even though as black belts most of us go pretty hard on each other. There are a couple of possible reasons for avoiding working with beginners (although in an established class with lots of experienced students the higher ranks should be expected to step up and help the new guys).

    First off, beginners - especially big guys - will often try to overcome lack of skill/experience/whatever with sheer force and muscle because they are afraid of being embarrassed or getting hurt themselves. In a well run class with decent black belts that should never happen because the black belts will consider it a training exercise for the new guy and work it to their level. But the new guys don't always know that so they try to compensate.

    The other problem is the new guys who are out to prove something. They take it as an affront to their manhood to be "beaten" by someone, even if that other person has years of experience. They still can't just let the ego go and try to learn from it. And for me it can be even worse. I'm only 5'7", although i'm pretty compact and muscular, but the big guys can't quite get past being bested by a "little guy". I've had to thump more than a few bigger, younger guys who want to prove they can get a piece of Sensei to soother their own ego.

    From the sounds of things, you are neither of these guys, but realize that after enough years of the same old same old patterns do start to emerge and some people just try to avoid it all for the sake of their own training.

    What I suggest to you is to find one or two of the more experienced guys who are close to your own size, and ask them for some help with a particular technique or concept. If you ask politely and with no hint of attitude most of them will probably be more than happy to help out. And once the others see you working with them things should start to improve quickly with the rest.

    Good luck, and don't get discouraged - as long as you stick it out with a good attitude, things will eventually turn around and you'll be one of the group.
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 8:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was training last friday and was working in a three, with an orange belt and a green belt both middle aged. We got called out to demo a de ashi barai combo, I asked them before hand what they were going to do, they 'couldn't remember'.

    I was like, what the ****!

    We've only been drilling these combos for 30 fucking minutes and now you can't even think of one to do? Seriously?

    I'm there ready as an uke to make them look like the best fucking Judo players the world has ever seen and they're, I don't know where, in la la land.

    Anyway point being that often late adult beginners are spectacularly uselss and wear out the patience of more experienced Judoka, because they are so useless that people have to protect themselves by not practicing with them and are generally just a major ball ache for an established club.
  8. budochic is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 8:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kyokushin/Judo/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To the OP, how often do you train? In my experience people are more likely to want to train with a lower belt that they see in every single class than someone who just shows up when they feel like it.

    Listen to your instructors, train regularly, relax and don't try and muscle against your partners and people will be more willing to partner you.
  9. Kouch is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 9:50pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That might be understandable too, most of them are national and world competitors.
    maybe if they take their competition seriously they just wanna get some good rounds in and get their training in? just a thought.
  10. Sorekara is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2011 10:46pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=senseipookie;2574802]

    First off, beginners - especially big guys - will often try to overcome lack of skill/experience/whatever with sheer force and muscle because they are afraid of being embarrassed or getting hurt themselves. In a well run class with decent black belts that should never happen because the black belts will consider it a training exercise for the new guy and work it to their level. But the new guys don't always know that so they try to compensate.

    From the sounds of things, you are neither of these guys, but realize that after enough years of the same old same old patterns do start to emerge and some people just try to avoid it all for the sake of their own training. QUOTE]

    No doubt! I definately over compensated. I used alot of brute force for a long time. Something sometime clicked and that's over with now.
    There are some BB's that will randori with me. They're more than accomodating and take the time to explain things and let me work.


    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Anyway point being that often late adult beginners are spectacularly uselss and wear out the patience of more experienced Judoka, because they are so useless that people have to protect themselves by not practicing with them and are generally just a major ball ache for an established club.
    I've been that guy before. At first it was a lot to take in. Now it seems more like legos. I don't think I'm useless at all. But, I get your point. It's easy to imagine how frustrating it is. After 10 years of dealing with people that just want to half ass and then more than likely not be there even to Shodan. That's the guy I'm trying not to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by budochic View Post
    To the OP, how often do you train? In my experience people are more likely to want to train with a lower belt that they see in every single class than someone who just shows up when they feel like it.

    Listen to your instructors, train regularly, relax and don't try and muscle against your partners and people will be more willing to partner you.
    I'm in the first class 98% of the time. I usually show up early and practice Uchi Komi. In a years time I have missed about 2 months due to injury. But, when it happened I made sure I let Sensei know that I got hurt and had to miss class. I made a point to tell him that I didn't want anyone to think they wasted their time and that I'm not dropping out.

    The second class I don't go to yet. I feel more like I'd be in the way with my limited skills.
    BJJ is on the junior nights and I'm there about 70% of the time. If I'm not there it's because I'm watching my son train.

    All in all there's no shortage of people to drill with.

    Mostly I just wanted to see if it was a normal occurance or if there might be something wrong. The funniest thing is, I'm just as afraid I'm going to do something stupid and hurt someone as they are.

    I guess since being afraid or frustrated with beginners in randori is a normal thing, I'll just continue to be patient. One day I'll be good enough to not be a terror or a frustration.

    I appreciate all of you taking the time to reply.
    Last edited by Sorekara; 7/09/2011 11:08pm at .
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