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  1. pokeroo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2011 10:27pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    This is impossible. You mean energy, right?



    Getting energy from protein is a waste of precious amino acid (in the wild). This is a starvation survival program, and not a good message to send your body. Especially if you are in full training. You can do a brief (2 weeks or so) carb detox, but you are going to need some carbs in the mix for the long term if you are going to sustain any kind of training program without crashing or getting injured. Just try to get them from whole foods like fruits, nuts and (if you're tollerant) lactose.
    I thought in theory it was possible as long as you had enough fat, fat and carbs being somewhat interchangeable... however I do realized that its very difficult to have enough energy for an intense workout readily available unless you consume some carbs before hand.
  2. pokeroo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2011 10:28pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Did I answer your question?
    I think so.
  3. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 1:54am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips
    This is impossible. You mean energy, right?
    Actually, this is not impossible. Protein is converted to glucose on a regular basis, through a process called Gluconeogenesis (the word literally means "create new glucose"). It does take a metabolic cost, so it's not advisable to someone trying to conserve their amino acids for muscle building.

    However, protein does get converted to glucose. It happens whenever the body has an immediate need for energy and there is not enough stored glycogen or serum glucose to meet the needs.

    Muscle cells aren't able to directly metabolize protein for energy, the molecule is far too complex. Muscles can only metabolize fatty acids or glucose for energy. This is why your muscles catabolize if you're in too deep of a calorie deficit. Especially consider the fact that nerve tissue (like your brain, which uses ~25% of your total caloric need) can only metabolize glucose effectively. Your brain is at the top of the hierarchy of caloric need, and your body will happily break down muscle tissue and convert the amino acids to glucose if it's the only source available.
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  4. elipson is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 1:57am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just try to get them from whole foods like fruits, nuts and (if you're tollerant) lactose.
    Is Lactose a better carb in some way?

    I mix my protein shakes with milk, and recently ive wondered if this is good/bad from a fat loss perspective.


    I went the other day with practically no carbs, just to test it out. I ate tons and still felt hungry. It was aggravating.
  5. pokeroo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 2:02am


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    Taebo master, you sound like you know what your talking about. So this rabbit starvation thing I read about makes me really wonder if you can get ever get ahead on energy by the process of gluconeogenesis. Of course I am not sure whether the phenomenon of rabbit starvation is due to the body's metabolism just going on overdrive and burning up all the glucose produced, or whether it is due to the energy used converting protein to glucose being less than the energy used to excrete the waste nitrogen?
  6. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 2:04am

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    Lactose is not necessarily a better or a worse carb. It's a fairly sturdy carbohydrate molecule, which makes it more difficult to digest than most carbs are. Even for those who aren't lactose intolerant, the body processes lactose fairly slowly. This is the reason for the "one gallon challenge". For those of you who aren't familiar with it, that's a challenge where you have to drink a gallon of milk in under an hour without vomiting. It's almost impossible to pull off. The reason is because lactose is broken down very slowly, so milk doesn't move through your system as quickly as most liquids do.

    Some people in the nutrition and fitness industry believe that virtually all adults are lactose intolerant to one degree or another. I'm not entirely sure I buy this, but it is safe to say that lactose is not one of the easier sugars for your body to handle.

    But directly to your question, I suppose in theory that would make it better from a fat loss perspective. Since it enters your system more slowly (all carbohydrates are eventually broken down to glucose before entering the bloodstream), it would theoretically induce less of an insulin reaction. But, that's entirely musing off the top of my head. I'm citing no research, and make no promises about that statement.
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  7. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 9:35am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a verbal battle about every 3 months with another trainer that I used to work with about the necessity of carbohydrates.

    There is research out there (tons of it on pubmed.gov) that suggests a lower-carb diet improves insulin sensitivity, heart disease risk factors, a variety of mood disorders, and peaks/valleys in energy levels. There is also research that suggests there are risks.

    Offering some anecdotal evidence in favor of carb restriction, though, I have competed in many, many BJJ and grappling tournaments while eating lower-carb diets, and even after having fasted. My energy levels were never in question, and I never lost strength or muscle mass. For me, it works, and I don't have to restrict all that much in order to lose fat and retain muscle (as high as 180g a day, although I see quick results at 100g). Some of my PT clients, however, have to dip down pretty low in order to get a better body composition, and I suppose that would suggest they are more sensitive to carbohydrates than I am.
  8. elipson is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 2:15pm

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    Re: the milk challenge.

    I did a short version of that challenge this winter. 2 liters in 10 minutes. The research I did into the challenge is that the stomach has capacity for about 1 liter of anything at any given time, and that when you try to exceed that limit it has a puke reflex. I don't know if anyone has tried four liters of water at once or over an hour.

    I won my challenge btw :) I felt absolutely horrible for the rest of the night and felt like I was going to explode. It definetely felt like it was a volume issue as opposed to a "milk" issue.
  9. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 3:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Now, I didn't end up succumbing to the craving so hopefully it diminishes in power like other addictions, but I thought I would drop a thread here and ask if anyone else has had this and what they did to counter it.
    This might be a useful read for you: a PLoS ONE (peer reviewed) exercise/carb study done (2009) showed the same maintained weight (or loss or gain) for people who exercised intensely only a few days a week vs. people who exercised moderately a week vs a control group that didn't exercise at all. The reason turned out that the more intense and regular the exercise, the more binge eating afterwards.

    The reason was binge eating brought on by the rate of exercise ala rate of metabolism spikes/declines. One of the first things my Hung Ga sifu told me (and it was backed up when I felt it) was that my appetite would greatly increase because of the types of workout we do. Sure enough, I went through the first year craving massive carbs after every workout (3x a week).

    After some *cough* willpower training I started feeding that craving with vegetables instead of pure carbs and I noticed not only the cravings were abated but that also I felt better afterwards (I used to get that processed food crash you describe too until I stopped eating bread/cereal and started eating essentially a large salad with maybe some chopped up cheese)

    Edit: found the study, Time Magazine 2009:

    Why Exercise Won't Make You Thin

    The Compensation Problem
    Earlier this year, the peer-reviewed journal PLoS ONE — PLoS is the nonprofit Public Library of Science — published a remarkable study supervised by a colleague of Ravussin's, Dr. Timothy Church, who holds the rather grand title of chair in health wisdom at LSU. Church's team randomly assigned into four groups 464 overweight women who didn't regularly exercise. Women in three of the groups were asked to work out with a personal trainer for 72 min., 136 min., and 194 min. per week, respectively, for six months. Women in the fourth cluster, the control group, were told to maintain their usual physical-activity routines. All the women were asked not to change their dietary habits and to fill out monthly medical-symptom questionnaires.

    The findings were surprising. On average, the women in all the groups, even the control group, lost weight, but the women who exercised — sweating it out with a trainer several days a week for six months — did not lose significantly more weight than the control subjects did. (The control-group women may have lost weight because they were filling out those regular health forms, which may have prompted them to consume fewer doughnuts.) Some of the women in each of the four groups actually gained weight, some more than 10 lb. each.

    What's going on here? Church calls it compensation, but you and I might know it as the lip-licking anticipation of perfectly salted, golden-brown French fries after a hard trip to the gym. Whether because exercise made them hungry or because they wanted to reward themselves (or both), most of the women who exercised ate more than they did before they started the experiment. Or they compensated in another way, by moving around a lot less than usual after they got home.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 6/28/2011 3:33pm at .
  10. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2011 3:50pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    Actually, this is not impossible. Protein is converted to glucose on a regular basis,
    This is of course correct. IDK why I thought he was specifically talking about complex carbs.

    Is Lactose a better carb in some way?
    Only in the sense that it is found in a high quality food category, unlike, say, dextrose or sucrose.
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