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  1. MasterYourself is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 2:03am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Replacement Certificates what is the answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    ....(and the original awarding organization won't replace it?)
    Sometimes that is impossible because not all valid martial arts instruction comes from some big organization with a computer database, in fact personal computers had barely been born when I got my first degree and databases were pretty rare. There are many legitimate instructors that have left organizations for one reason or another and continue to teach. The problem is their students have no recourse for such a loss some twenty years later when they have left the art for one reason or another and/or moved and/or died. Damn man did you not see that Karate Kid movie that they even remade in an effort to make it even worse?

    Then what?
    What in your mind is the right thing to do?
    Never say your a black belt again for fear some asswipe on a forum will demand to see your certificate?

    Obviously buying a certificate signed by someone you have never seen is not the answer, but what is, exactly?
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 3:13am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterYourself View Post
    Sometimes that is impossible because not all valid martial arts instruction comes from some big organization with a computer database, in fact personal computers had barely been born when I got my first degree and databases were pretty rare. There are many legitimate instructors that have left organizations for one reason or another and continue to teach. The problem is their students have no recourse for such a loss some twenty years later when they have left the art for one reason or another and/or moved and/or died. Damn man did you not see that Karate Kid movie that they even remade in an effort to make it even worse?

    Then what?
    What in your mind is the right thing to do?
    Never say your a black belt again for fear some asswipe on a forum will demand to see your certificate?

    Obviously buying a certificate signed by someone you have never seen is not the answer, but what is, exactly?
    This is a derail.
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106876
  3. MasterYourself is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 4:29am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    How is it a "derail" when he asked a question, which I merely answered and in return asked what he would prefer?

    The thread is about "replacement certificates" and the ethical implications as well, so the question is what does the OP think is the ethical thing to do.

    Just asking because I really do not "get it".
  4. HenryT is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 6:49am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterYourself View Post
    How is it a "derail" when he asked a question, which I merely answered and in return asked what he would prefer?

    The thread is about "replacement certificates" and the ethical implications as well, so the question is what does the OP think is the ethical thing to do.

    Just asking because I really do not "get it".
    It’s a derail because we’re talking specifically about the ethics (never mind the legality) of selling blank certificates to people who COULD use them to represent themselves falsely as having been awarded rank by Yamaguchi Gogen or the Japan Karate Association. Lost Goju Kai or JKA certificates certainly ARE replaceable by the awarding authority.

    The same is true, incidentally, of Harvard and Yale diplomas, offered for sale on the site in question as "novelties." No disrespect; but if you don't recognise this as an out-and-out scam, I wonder what it WOULD take to get you going?

    “Some asswipe on a forum” demands to see your certificate”? Don’t you think that courteously asking someone to establish his/her credentials is a reasonable thing to do, then?

    What would I prefer? I would prefer it if people didn't tell lies or perpetrate deceptions or encourage others to do so. The dog ate your certificate? Well, bad things happen. That doesn't make it right to tell lies. Say: "Hell, you know what? The dog ate my certificate!" And always make sure you have more than one copy. Color photocopies are easy to make, after all.

    MasterYourself: being truthful and honest is kinda important as a part of self-mastery, don't you think?

    What is it, exactly, that you don't get? That I'm objecting to someone who offers to fill John Doe's name and rank in on a doctored Goju Kai certificate without asking for any proof that John Doe is on the level? Well, maybe I'm just touchy.

    BTW: why has this turned into a separate thread?
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 8:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mostly you do nothing. If you got your rank 20 years ago you either degraded in skill so much from not training that you probably don't deserve that rank or have gotten so much better that no one cares who gave you rank 20 years ago.
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 9:27am

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    Certificates don't mean **** to me. But that's me.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 10:31am

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterYourself View Post
    How is it a "derail" when he asked a question, which I merely answered and in return asked what he would prefer?

    The thread is about "replacement certificates" and the ethical implications as well, so the question is what does the OP think is the ethical thing to do.

    Just asking because I really do not "get it".
    Pretty much what HT said and the thread is in MABS. The point of MABS is to investigate claims not debate rhetorical questions. That thread is about the legality of said certificates and what to do to stop the guy from selling signed certificates. If they were blank and unsigned, like all other certificates, HT's thread would be in YMAS and your post would have remained.

    You want to discuss what to you do if yours is lost, destroyed, the original Master is dead and asswipre forum members ask for prooff. Yes, that will lead to a bigger debate than HenryT and I had.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    It’s a derail because we’re talking specifically about the ethics (never mind the legality) of selling blank certificates to people who COULD use them to represent themselves falsely as having been awarded rank by Yamaguchi Gogen or the Japan Karate Association.

    BTW: why has this turned into a separate thread?
    You answered that all by yourself.
  8. HenryT is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2011 4:06pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK: if we’re going to have a new thread on this, here’s two cents’ worth, by way of answering the original question.

    You lost your certificate/it got eaten by a dog/it went down with the “Titanic,” and you can’t get a legitimate replacement: what should you do? You should tell the truth, of course. What else? If you tell the truth and somebody doesn’t believe you, so what? Your conscience is clear, at any rate. Clearer than it would be if you bought a fake, surely?

    If the question is, in effect, "should I tell a lie?", I can't see that there's any debate about the answer. Or maybe I'm missing something here?
  9. MasterYourself is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2011 6:59am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    It’s a derail because we’re talking specifically about the ethics (never mind the legality) of selling blank certificates to people who COULD use them to represent themselves falsely as having been awarded rank by Yamaguchi Gogen or the Japan Karate Association. Lost Goju Kai or JKA certificates certainly ARE replaceable by the awarding authority.
    Ohh, OK thanks for clearing that up for me, that was not the intention, but now that we are here, this should make for a good discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    “Some asswipe on a forum” demands to see your certificate”? Don’t you think that courteously asking someone to establish his/her credentials is a reasonable thing to do, then?
    How about I let you hold the pad?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    What would I prefer? I would prefer it if people didn't tell lies or perpetrate deceptions or encourage others to do so. The dog ate your certificate? Well, bad things happen. That doesn't make it right to tell lies. Say: "Hell, you know what? The dog ate my certificate!" And always make sure you have more than one copy. Color photocopies are easy to make, after all?
    First I beg you not to mention photocopies again, you have no ideal how much I wished I had thought of that, no ideal at all. :(

    Second the dog didn't eat it, it couldn't swin. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    MasterYourself: being truthful and honest is kinda important as a part of self-mastery, don't you think?
    Yes of course, one should never lie it only complicates matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    What is it, exactly, that you don't get? That I'm objecting to someone who offers to fill John Doe's name and rank in on a doctored Goju Kai certificate without asking for any proof that John Doe is on the level? Well, maybe I'm just touchy.?
    You took that one out of context, I did not "get" the derail thing, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryT View Post
    BTW: why has this turned into a separate thread?
    Because apparently it was seen as a derail.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Mostly you do nothing. If you got your rank 20 years ago you either degraded in skill so much from not training that you probably don't deserve that rank or have gotten so much better that no one cares who gave you rank 20 years ago.
    I know, I know I have heard it a million and one times, that and who cares. But it is something to be proud of, it is an accomplishment that many do not have and more importantly it is something that was earned, also a good explaination for a great side kick. Decided ranks are permanent and one does not have to visit a dojo to practice nor does one need a form and they vary anyway. I am much better as a complete product, although injuries cause me to rely more on hand techniques, Jujitsu and Presure points more, my Axe kick, Cresents,and front kicks still meet the grade as does my right side kick and jump 360 side kick, the left does not care much for the pain however, but I can still pull a decent side kick most times, round kicks are about the same as the side and twist kick works fine both sides as well. Of course in practical defense jump kicks are better left for the parlor trick hour. I can and have resently proven that I can remember most kicks by number. There is a saying that perhaps you have never heard, it goes like this "Once you learn, you never forgot", after all who teaches the grand master? When you build that kind of strength into your body it just doesn't go away easily. I can still do a static side kick better than any white belt surely.

    I also understand exactly what your saying, I am just a stickler for documentation.

    Example, I tell you I am blah, blah, blah and you say, ohh yea, prove it, and I say well I don't have and we agree I'll show you what I know, then afterward, you reply with, well that is OK, but you seem far from being a blah, blah, blah. At least with your certificate, you have proof that someone else agrees with your assesment of your training, which is why is horrible that we have all these fakes now.

    What I am saying is, I understand some people buy them that should not, but for example, if I did spot one signed by my master would it be wrong to replace a lost or damaged certificate with it? BTW no chance of that happening I don't think because at that time I went to a very small school at the rec center. I only have a colored belt certificate left now and if I remade it using that someone would probably expose the cut and paste job using various filters. So it is like a lose, lose and I hate those.

    Also it seems to me that around here that is how things work.

    Also, aside from a form which has no real value in defense and differs from one dojo to the next and one organization to the next, what would you expect a black belt to be able to do? What about a second degree? A third? and so on.

    I have seen grand masters that tested and in my opinion didn't do any more than a good bluebelt could do, so.

    These questions are open to everyone reading BTW.
    Last edited by MasterYourself; 6/25/2011 7:36am at .
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2011 9:08am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Then you go somewhere pay your money and get ranked again through a legit org. Yes, that happened to someone that posted here. There are a myriad ways to try and get a n old rank certificate. There is nor reason for some random guy to forge, yes that is what he is doing, replacements. Yes, if you kept your color belt and remade your Black Belt that would make you a forger as well.

    Then again, you are dancing around Henry T's point. The guy is replacing any and every type of certificate including military and School Diplomas. You focusing on one small aspect is wrong. As two out of the three can be replaced by the organizations that still exist. I've seen people get old diplomas back form defunct schools because, the records are kept somewhere and not destroyed.
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