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  1. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2011 3:26pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    The only people I have met who are more flexible than Olympic weightlifters are gymnasts and contortionists.
    Ain't that the truth. Dropping deep into the catch on a snatch requires a little something extra, that's for sure.
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  2. Gypsy Jazz is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2011 4:01pm


     Style: Does exercise count?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    Depends on what the source of that extreme flexibility. Typically, even extreme flexibility developed in an "athletic" manner (meaning by deliberate training) is unlikely to result in joint laxity. Usually, this is the result of congenital or incidental factors that reduce the ability of the ligaments to maintain the joint capsule. Incidental factors could include an injury that damages the ligaments (seen often in dislocated shoulders), or biological ones.
    I think this is going to depend a bit on what you would classify as an incidental factor, but you could also very reasonably get stuck in a chicken or egg situation. What I mean is you can look at pitchers in baseball who almost across the board suffer from glenohumeral internal rotation deficit (GIRD). In order to throw better something that might be classified as "excess" range of motion takes place in the shoulder particularly in external rotation. Look at how far back a shoulder gets cocked.

    GIRD, like pretty much any major mobility deficit is linked to injuries that can be serious.

    Based on that, we have to ask if it's that great pitchers already are more prone to having a larger range of external rotation at the shoulder, if the act of pitching causes increased shoulder ER or if there's some combination of the two. Baseball isn't my sport in any way, but from what I understand pitchers used to be (and possibly still are) encouraged to gain more shoulder ER via stretching/mobility to improve their throwing, not realizing that it increases risk of injury.

    All of that said it doesn't terribly seem like the increased range of motion in that example is the cause for injury nearly as much as the asymmetrical strength and range of motion that the pattern encourages.

    Looking at another more forum relevant example, lower back flexibility is pretty regularly encouraged and probably beneficial in grappling arts/sports. On the other hand it's well established that spinal flexion/extension under load is pretty much asking for back problems. If you're lacking mobility in the thoracic spine or the hips, stability/strength at the scapulae or knees most people will automatically compensate and will use the the path of least resistance. If the low back is the most flexible of the bunch, that's where movement is going to come from.

    Even more common as a general pattern is someone lacking the ability to extend at the hip via the glutes and compensation with tremendous lower back extension. That's typically a combination of tight hip flexors and weak glutes, but can also pretty easily be lack of body awareness.

    The tl;dr of all of this is pretty much that if everything's in balance that more flexibility is probably beneficial on the whole, but things must be kept in balance. Even if increased flexibility doesn't directly cause a problem, it certainly can cause problems as a side effect.
  3. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2011 5:01pm

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    Someone's been reading Eric Cressey.
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  4. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2011 5:16pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy Jazz
    I think this is going to depend a bit on what you would classify as an incidental factor, but you could also very reasonably get stuck in a chicken or egg situation. What I mean is you can look at pitchers in baseball who almost across the board suffer from glenohumeral internal rotation deficit (GIRD). In order to throw better something that might be classified as "excess" range of motion takes place in the shoulder particularly in external rotation. Look at how far back a shoulder gets cocked.

    GIRD, like pretty much any major mobility deficit is linked to injuries that can be serious.
    Yes, a ROM deficit paired with hypermobility in selective directions is going to increase your potential for suffering a joint injury during activity. While your point is well taken, one should always be a little skeptical when trying to make the statistical comparison between a specialist (in this case, a high level athlete) and the general population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy Jazz
    On the other hand it's well established that spinal flexion/extension under load is pretty much asking for back problems. If you're lacking mobility in the thoracic spine or the hips, stability/strength at the scapulae or knees most people will automatically compensate and will use the the path of least resistance. If the low back is the most flexible of the bunch, that's where movement is going to come from.
    That's a little basic. The spine can handle flexion and extension under load just fine. It's designed to. All joints are. The trick is understanding the movement and the load. The spine can undergo loaded motion from a flexed or extended position, but the load tolerance of the spine is decreased. In a position of flexion, for example, the load tolerance of the spine decreases by as much as 50%. So it won't be able to tolerate as much load, but it can still handle some load. For Chrissakes, your own bodyweight is a "load". If this were the case, you'd never be able to undergo any spinal movement whatsoever.

    Where this idea comes from is weightlifting and athletic motions such as deadlifts or squats, jumps, etc. It's important to note that these are all movements where the primary joints of action or the knees and hips, not the spine directly. In such a situation, maintaining a neutral spine minimizes wasteful movement and maximizes stability, thereby maximizing the efficiency of movement.
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  5. Gypsy Jazz is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2011 6:06pm


     Style: Does exercise count?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    Yes, a ROM deficit paired with hypermobility in selective directions is going to increase your potential for suffering a joint injury during activity. While your point is well taken, one should always be a little skeptical when trying to make the statistical comparison between a specialist (in this case, a high level athlete) and the general population.
    The point on not transferring knowledge of a select small individuals and applying across the general populations is extremely important and should be taken to heart by anyone reading this myself included. For example sake I tend to go high profile instead of "this guy I know" because I don't have a lot of pictures of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    That's a little basic. The spine can handle flexion and extension under load just fine. It's designed to. All joints are. The trick is understanding the movement and the load. The spine can undergo loaded motion from a flexed or extended position, but the load tolerance of the spine is decreased. In a position of flexion, for example, the load tolerance of the spine decreases by as much as 50%. So it won't be able to tolerate as much load, but it can still handle some load. For Chrissakes, your own bodyweight is a "load". If this were the case, you'd never be able to undergo any spinal movement whatsoever.

    Where this idea comes from is weightlifting and athletic motions such as deadlifts or squats, jumps, etc. It's important to note that these are all movements where the primary joints of action or the knees and hips, not the spine directly. In such a situation, maintaining a neutral spine minimizes wasteful movement and maximizes stability, thereby maximizing the efficiency of movement.
    I didn't mean to imply that spines or bodies are delicate flowers, but I can see how what I said would be taken that way. The intended point is way closer to the one you explained with the addition of noting that weakness in one area can force compensation in another by way of "flexibility". That's hardly ground-breaking or complicated.

    And yes, I am a fan of Eric Cressey, though I haven't been reading his stuff lately even though I probably should.
  6. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2011 6:22pm

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    Once you dropped GIRD and a detailed explanation of shoulder rotation in baseball pitchers, you outed yourself as a Cressey fan. For the record, I'm a fan of Cressey's too. But a bigger fan of his mentor, Mike Boyle.
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  7. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2011 9:36pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
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    To the OP get the book "Stretching Scientifically" by Kurz, he describes each method of stretching, when and what order to do them and why; a very good book. Don't do static stretches before the workout, do them afterwards to improve recovery.
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