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  1. Taijineigong is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 1:51pm


     Style: Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    What makes you think people haven't experienced them in person themselves, and thus knew that you were exaggerating about being thrown twenty feet!!!! etc.

    You should practice your own sensitivity, sinking, and rooting more if the only way you can stop a stumble is to flop onto your ass.

    You should get out more then. That sort of uprooting ain't all that difficult.
    Wow, again **** talking w/o direct experience of WHAT EXACTLY I AM TALKING ABOUT!

    Many people have indeed experienced this type of push / uprooting, but it is a levels thing. I can do this on a lot of people, including heavy MMA guys in non-compliance mode. But it is difficult, and it is not like I can get it 100% every time. If I could, I should probably go to UFC & win tons of money.

    It is true, that if my level advanced to that of my teachers, it would be possible to stop them from uprooting me like this.

    However, like I said, this is a levels thing, and no magic I am going to do is going to allow me to control the impetus of movement caused by someone who has 20+ years on me in their experience level.

    Since, Rivington, I see you are also a taijiquan practitioner, and in the East Bay, I'm sure you have access to at least a few guys who are up to this level. Who do you train with?

    If you want, you can reply with a PM to me, and I will tell you about the specific details & name-names of who I'm talking about that has done this. If you want to talk ****, go visit them, one of the teachers to whom I'm referring is in Southern California.

    And for the rest of you, I can ask permission to see if the teacher doesn't mind me naming his name openly here. Or just also PM me and I will indicate the details.
  2. Taijineigong is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 1:56pm


     Style: Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Put down the bong.
    This was RE: me saying "sometimes I've gotten tingles / goosebumps from a good push or hit."

    Have you ever gotten goosebumps or tingles when someone lightly brushes over the hairs on your arm or something?

    There is nothing mystical / magical about this, it is some sort of autonomic nervous system response that can be triggered by certain types of touch. I am definitely not alone in experiencing this, and actually have found / heard from a lot of CIMA guys who have also experienced that.

    I have no idea how it works, and have been working at figuring that out for a while.

    FWIW, I even had a friend who could cause himself to get goosebumps on command, where the hairs on his arm & neck would stand straight up on command. He said it was related to something we learned from our teacher, but I have no f-cking clue how that one works ...
  3. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 2:09pm

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Taijineigong View Post
    Wow, again **** talking w/o direct experience of WHAT EXACTLY I AM TALKING ABOUT!
    It's funny that you assume you have had experiences that other people haven't. Guess what—some people just disagree with you. It's easy, because you're obviously exaggerating and have already admitted it. Why do you continue calling other people ****-talkers when the issue was your phony claim about people being chucked twenty feet, which you revised to mean stumbling backward.

    It is true, that if my level advanced to that of my teachers, it would be possible to stop them from uprooting me like this.
    Great. Train more.

    However, like I said, this is a levels thing, and no magic I am going to do is going to allow me to control the impetus of movement caused by someone who has 20+ years on me in their experience level.
    Maybe. Maybe not. Twenty years experience doing what is the important question.

    I can do this on a lot of people, including heavy MMA guys in non-compliance mode.
    Will you make a video of yourself doing so?

    Since, Rivington, I see you are also a taijiquan practitioner, and in the East Bay, I'm sure you have access to at least a few guys who are up to this level. Who do you train with?
    How funny; you brag about your teachers—or more likely, whatever person said two words to you during $100/hr seminar—without naming names, then expect me to first. At any rate, I train with Henry Wong, a disciple of Chen Jin Hong (aka Gene Chen), who was in turn the #1 disciple of Feng Zhiqiang. Prior to that I trained with Marin Spivack, a disciple of Chen Yu.

    Now you.

    If you want, you can reply with a PM to me, and I will tell you about the specific details & name-names of who I'm talking about that has done this. If you want to talk ****, go visit them, one of the teachers to whom I'm referring is in Southern California.
    You can name them here.

    And for the rest of you, I can ask permission to see if the teacher doesn't mind me naming his name openly here. Or just also PM me and I will indicate the details.
    Why on Earth wouldn't he want to be named here?
    Last edited by Rivington; 4/19/2012 2:13pm at .
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 2:20pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    where I thought we were all about empirical evidence.
    Yes, that's one of many things. Okay since you put it out there:
    Quote Originally Posted by Taijineigong View Post

    In that demo, they were showing taijiquan to a group of MMA / sport fighters, and were working off a "scripted" list of moves. A "compliant demo" you could call it. My Okinawan friend wanted to show the group that the teacher could adapt and apply **** dynamically, so he deviated from the script and tossed a couple of unexpected punches at the teacher ... and ended up getting his neck broken.

    Basically, the unexpected strike ended up getting the teacher to move backward in an arc (evading to the outside), and in the process of locking the attacking arm, the teacher lost his balance, ended up dropping the student straight onto the ground & landing directly on top of his head, snapping some vertebrae in his cervical spine.

    Again, like I said, it is worth noting it's definitely not pretty if it's not a compliant demo with these types of guys, because people get seriously injured.

    I don't have more than 5-6 stories of this sort, because people quickly learn with teachers like that not to **** with them unless you are ready for some serious pain.
    Get to it please.

    Thanks.
  5. Taijineigong is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 4:12pm


     Style: Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    It's funny that you assume you have had experiences that other people haven't. Guess what—some people just disagree with you.
    If you have had the same experience, it is not possible to disagree on its veracity. Rather, you are saying you disagree on the wording of how you would describe the experience. In which case, you want to debate semantics on a subjective experience?

    It's easy [to disagree], because you're obviously exaggerating and have already admitted it.
    Tru dat. I wouldn't say I was exaggerating as much as I was not careful enough in choosing my words, especially for a forum like Bullshido. What I originally said, that got people's panties wrangled, was:

    launch you 10-20 feet
    I don't think it is inaccurate by the dictionary definition to describe someone sending me stumbling backward as launching me. But I can understand the confusion between launching as the initial impetus for movement vs. launching as propelling me through the air as in a hammer throw. Next time I will say "their push can send one stumbling backward with little effort" to avoid this.

    I proceeded to say:

    or launch you straight up into the air
    Which is actually the easiest of all of those, as Rivington noted when he said:

    You should get out more then. That sort of uprooting ain't all that difficult.
    The final thing I said, which is obviously allegory and not meant to be construed literally was:

    or knock you straight down to the ground like the floor had been removed from underneath you
    This one is the hardest to describe, but what I can say is that the teacher to whom I'm referring, without using his hands, deflected a push to his chest downward, and caused the pusher to hit the ground so fast that the downward pull thru the front of the pusher's body caused the upward pull up the back of his body to cause the pusher to pull his Achilles tendon while rapidly landing face-first on the ground.

    Regardless, that is a straw-man argument to use around here, because I have no evidence of it, and only the hearsay evidence of the pusher (who's Achilles was pulled) and several other students who saw it happen. So, take it for what it's worth, and disagree all you want, because I cannot and do not intend to prove this one.

    Anyway, it is fine for people do disagree. As you can see, I am a n00b here, and it is interactions like this for which I joined: to help me choose my words more carefully & accurately in discussing these matters. I won't try to defend what I said ... rather, I will focus on providing evidence.

    I said:

    I can do this ["type of push / uprooting"] on a lot of people, including heavy MMA guys in non-compliance mode.
    Rivington said:

    Will you make a video of yourself doing so?
    Maybe, but I cannot make any promises. I have never uploaded a video to the interwebs in my life, nor do I have a suitable digital recording device. But still, I will make an effort.

    Also, remember I said that getting this type of hit on someone heavy in non-compliance mode (i.e. in a competitive fight) is far from automatic for me, and more a feat of luck than skill at my level. I will work on taking more video of myself practicing with big guys and uploading it, but so far I have never done this.

    Would it be helpful to see me achieve it in push hands (non-compliant somewhat, but with very strict rules) or do you need to see only in free-form sparring / fight?

    Rivington, thank you for generously and openly talk about your teachers:

    At any rate, I train with Henry Wong, a disciple of Chen Jin Hong (aka Gene Chen), who was in turn the #1 disciple of Feng Zhiqiang. Prior to that I trained with Marin Spivack, a disciple of Chen Yu.
    I'm wondering: are saying these guys can't "launch" you?

    How would you describe the effects / feeling of your teachers when they uproot you and cause you to move backward?

    And, following suit, after Rivington said:

    Now you.

    You can name them here ...
    Why on Earth wouldn't he want to be named here?
    Well, I am not sure why or why not, and it may be a little rude for me to do this without asking, but I say f-ck it ... so the teacher I am talking about who broke the guy's neck in a demo is Tony Ho (or Ho Nan Jie).

    He "divides his time between teaching in Irvine, Taiwan, and Shanghai." According to his bio, Tony studied Northern & Southern [external] styles of gongfu as a teen in Shanghai.

    He began studying taijiquan with "Pei Tsu Ying" (for whom idk the pinyin) ... who was a student of Wu Jianquan (Wu Chien-ch-uan or 吳鑑泉) & Wu Gongyi (Wu Kung-i or 吳公儀).

    Here is a video reel of some highlights of Tony (or Anthony) Ho's demos. These clips are all anywhere from 10-20 years old (maybe some older), and Tony's skill has definitely become more refined since then.

  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 4:17pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Taijineigong View Post
    If you have had the same experience, it is not possible to disagree on its veracity.
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 4:21pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Meh, this is like cavemen trying to explain a shooting star.
  8. Taijineigong is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 4:33pm


     Style: Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Yes, that's one of many things. Okay since you put it out there ...

    Get to it please.
    Regarding the episode where Tony broke my friend John's neck in a demo.

    Apparently, there is a video of this, because John talked about watching it many years later and still getting cold sweats when he sees it happen, but I have not found this video. I will try to find it to upload, but for now, you all will just have to take this story for what it's worth:

    Hearsay --- inadmissible evidence. At least it is an interesting anecdote? Maybe it is just Bullshido, you have no way of knowing! Unless you go out of your way to contact people in Tony's class ... if anyone does that, please do post back your findings.
  9. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 4:35pm

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Taijineigong View Post
    If you have had the same experience, it is not possible to disagree on its veracity. Rather, you are saying you disagree on the wording of how you would describe the experience. In which case, you want to debate semantics on a subjective experience?
    It's not semantics. It's either an accurate or an inaccurate description. This is all about your ego—you got pushed into a stumble. You bragged, foolishly, without making it clear that you meant ten feet of stumbling...which incidentally says a bit more about your root than anyone else's. Now your back is up because people are a) poking fun at you and b) pointing out that you already revised your claim. This is not a semantic issue in the slightest.


    I don't think it is inaccurate by the dictionary definition to describe someone sending me stumbling backward as launching me.
    Definition of LAUNCH

    transitive verb
    1
    a : to throw forward : hurl b : to release, catapult, or send off (a self-propelled object) <launch a rocket>

    Definition of STUMBLE

    intransitive verb
    1
    a : to fall into sin or waywardness b : to make an error : blunder c : to come to an obstacle to belief

    2
    : to trip in walking or running

    3
    a : to walk unsteadily or clumsily (italics mine)

    Seems to me they are quite different. Are you a native English speaker? If not, sorry for the grief, but consider it a lesson learned. If so, you should stop whining about how awful Bullshido posters are for actually demanding some precision when describing experiences.




    Next time I will say "their push can send one stumbling backward with little effort" to avoid this.
    Good. Is there any reason this took a whole afternoon of you whining to come to this conclusion?


    The final thing I said, which is obviously allegory and not meant to be construed literally was
    Allegory?

    Definition of ALLEGORY

    1
    : the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression

    So, what symbolic meaning are you referring to when you discuss being knocked down to the floor. Is it your worldview being knocked to the floor, is it your conception of reality...is it? Eh, never mind. Listen, just look up words before you use them in the future.



    Maybe, but I cannot make any promises. I have never uploaded a video to the interwebs in my life, nor do I have a suitable digital recording device. But still, I will make an effort.
    Good, looking forward to it. If you have a cellphone, most carriers are giving away smartphones that have built-in video recorders, btw.

    Also, remember I said that getting this type of hit on someone heavy in non-compliance mode (i.e. in a competitive fight) is far from automatic for me, and more a feat of luck than skill at my level.
    Sounds like you shouldn't brag about it then.

    Would it be helpful to see me achieve it in push hands (non-compliant somewhat, but with very strict rules) or do you need to see only in free-form sparring / fight?
    Depends on the push-hands. Freestyle, mobile-stepping pushing-hands, yes. Fixed-step, no.

    I'm wondering: are saying these guys can't "launch" you?
    Twenty feet? No.

    How would you describe the effects / feeling of your teachers when they uproot you and cause you to move backward?
    I'd say that they uproot me and send me backwards.


    Anthony Ho
    "Great Grandmaster", eh? Any, most of that video is cooperative parlor trickery.
  10. Taijineigong is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2012 5:07pm


     Style: Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    It's not semantics. It's either an accurate or an inaccurate description. This is all about your ego—you got pushed into a stumble.
    Yes, I revised my statement to this. Now that your dictionary definition is here for all to see, the most accurate description would be I was launched in a way which caused me to stumble backwards (in some cases stumbling many feet, up to 20). I also said the stumbling could be easily averted by just falling down, but sometimes I'd rather "run it out" than land on my arse.

    You said practically the same thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    I'd say that they uproot me and send me backwards.
    And yet you are saying this isn't about semantics???

    Anyway, I think more than this being about my ego, this is about accurate descriptions, which you are emphasizing. I also agree, otherwise I'd be defending my initial statement instead of revising it to a more accurate one. I don't know that revising my statement or answering your questions & remarks is really bragging or whining, but say what you will. Maybe you can go get us the dictionary definitions of these words too, and we will see you are Oh So Accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    You bragged, foolishly, without making it clear that you meant ten feet of stumbling...which incidentally says a bit more about your root than anyone else's.
    I never said anything about my root, and I certainly wasn't bragging about getting easily tossed around. How could that be bragging? Because I said people who can't easily launch me around must not be that great of internal martial artists??

    For all you know, I have no root whatsoever and am a total beginner. Without touching hands with me, all you can say for sure is that my descriptions are not as accurate as you would like them to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Definition of ALLEGORY

    1
    : the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression

    So, what symbolic meaning are you referring to when you discuss being knocked down to the floor.
    Ok ... Mr. Accurate Dictionary Descriptions ... the allegory in that context is when I said "like the floor had been removed from underneath you" --- an expression of an instance of symbolic fictional action.

    So, I guess in online forums, sometimes people say things inaccurately.

    I already said it is interactions like this why I joined Bullshido ... to have people like you help me be more clear in expressing my experiences relating to the martial arts. Thanks for the help.

    But maybe YOU should spend some time carefully considering your dictionary broseph... Either way, who cares? It is like Omega said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Meh, this is like cavemen trying to explain a shooting star.
    And back to Tony's video, which I knew you would poo-poo:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    "Great Grandmaster", eh? Any, most of that video is cooperative parlor trickery.
    Agreed, and you could probably make a video of yourself doing those same cooperative parlor tricks that would look the same as Tony, right?

    FWIW, he never calls himself Great Grandmaster or anything like that. If you watch the video, or read his website, you will see this is an honorary title he got from the SF Chapter of ATAMA (American Teachers Association of Martial Arts) ... and the title they gave him was actually even more ridiculous:

    "Professor, Master Professor, and Grandmaster"

    Either way, Mr. Accurate Descriptions, I would think you would also want to have accurate perceptions ... so what can you really learn about someone's internal martial arts or real-world fighting ability without touch?

    I think we actually agree more than we disagree, and it seems to me your ego is at least as involved here as mine.

    But in the end, I think we are both agree that the issue is more accurate descriptions, which I already noted you have the authority on.

    For me, it is clear that my original description did not have suitable accuracy to be posted here on this forum, and I appreciate the commentary.
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