RSBD Defense courses

**Team Python** · Posted On: 6/20/2011 11:31pm

Originally Posted by shotfghter

Since you're a police officer, whats your take on Wrestling or wrestling moves adapted into an RSBD type of environment? Freestyle wrestling, greco roman, the real deal stuff.

Wrestling is good but like all grappling styles it takes years to become good at it. I would not try to teach wrestling to a bunch of out of shape cops or civilians who have no wrestling background. Now if I get a group of students that have a wrestling background then there is no problem there. I myself like wrestling especially the wrestling style of the old Soviet block countries.

**RynoGreene** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 12:38am

I worked in a max security juvenile institution for about 4 years in California. Due to legal reasons (Annie E Casey grants), we were not allowed to carry mace/pepper spray/batons on the units. We were trained in defensive tactics for a whopping 3 days or so, with refresher seminars every 6 months or so. And the training was bad. Very bad. Sadly, I know that the head trainers also did a lot of work with the local police and sheriff departments as well.

The training was very aikido-esque. Lots of wristlocks and such with little emphasis on positional control. *Note - Using both hands to grab someone's wrist in the middle of a gang fight is not a terribly good idea. I was not foolish enough to actually try that, but saw other staff members get the **** knocked out of them on more than one occasion.

At the time, I had minimal grappling experience, and was training Arnis and Muay Thai. During our defensive tactics course, all I could keep thinking was "WTF? How the hell are you going to get that to work against someone aggressive and/or athletic?" After class on the last day, I hit up one of the instructors privately and asked him exactly that. He was surprised that I would even ask this, but being a cool guy, he said we could test it out. He tried to apply several takedowns, several locks, several control holds against me as I resisted (not violently) and couldn't get much of any of it to work. And if it did kind of work, it wasn't clean, and his follow ups were poor. He got fairly frustrated at the difficulty I presented, and I was still playing nice (no striking him when I could have). Note as well that the instructor was fit, and probably 30 lbs heavier than me at that time.

The lack of live training, even with the instructors just made the whole experience painful. It was just so much situational theory with little practicality against anyone with some common sense, an athletic background or just a bit of training.

Once I went on to work in the units, 90% of the training went out the window. American football tactic were far superior (Hit low, grip, lift, drive through). I could definitely see most real grappling systems being useful in that type of circumstance, with the caveat that I would definitely avoid sacrifices throws that drop you down in the middle of a brawl. Mobility is pretty crucial when there are still threats around you, so going down with the first guy you grab isn't always optimal. Aggressive forward throws like Ososto Gari/forward reaps, lifts, and footsweeps would be particularly useful.

Knowledge of control holds/pins is critical once you need to cuff. Once you are safe from being kicked in the head, and have someone down, you absolutely have to be able to keep someone down so that they don't pop back up where you have to start the whole situation over. We were always looking to apply cuffs, so getting them belly down was the goal. This is where I did like some of the training that we got. It's just funny how the rear wristlock works so much better once you've got a guy belly down, and all of your weight on him.

**dwkfym** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 1:12am

Wow. What an eye opener this thread has been.

While I know that certain prisons have some atrocious abuse from the guards, I think its ridiculous that you guys couldn't carry nonlethal juvie or no juvie. At least have some good training.

As a civilian martial artist, even once a week martial arts training with sparring and randori like sessions would help so much. And I have a hunch that with properly trained, more confident guards, many of the abuse allegations will subside as well.

I'm in Florida by the way, probably has the worst reputation for guard abuse.

**dwkfym** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 1:13am

I'm gonna have to defnitely take time to archive these discussions, and if it is okay with you guys, write a blog entry on it. I'd like to do direct quotes (credited of course, I may PM you guys for real names and permission to use it) and summarizations. Probably after the bar exam though, which will be august.

**DARPAChief** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 1:35am

I'm offering autographs at twenty dollars per unit plus S&H (for a limited time only!).

**DdlR** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 5:34am

Teaching short term self defense course was my full-time gig back in the late '80s and early '90s. Typically 24 hour courses spread over three to six weeks, mostly open to the general public with some specialized courses (women only, kids only, etc.), using the scenario-based "padded attacker" model.

IMO these courses can be very worthwhile as long as:

* the instructor is realistic, honest and upfront, and is not pushing any other agenda
* the course places a positive value on awareness and avoidance and trains those skills as seriously as the more physical aspects
* students are pushed as quickly as they are able to tolerate into truly realistic attack scenario training
* students are actively encouraged to seek further training after the course has ended

N.B. that there are BIG demographic difference between these short RBSD courses (especially those aimed at civilians, most especially those aimed at women) and most regular, ongoing MA or combat sport training. People who sign up for a short self defense course very often don't think of themselves as "fighters", may not have any appreciable athletic background and may well have survived serious assault and/or rape in the past. They may have so little self esteem that they barely believe they're worth defending. As a professional instructor you have to take them all as they come and give them what they need, even if that means disguising it as what they think they want ...

**shotfghter** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 5:37am

Originally Posted by dwkfym

Wow. What an eye opener this thread has been.

While I know that certain prisons have some atrocious abuse from the guards, I think its ridiculous that you guys couldn't carry nonlethal juvie or no juvie. At least have some good training.

As a civilian martial artist, even once a week martial arts training with sparring and randori like sessions would help so much. And I have a hunch that with properly trained, more confident guards, many of the abuse allegations will subside as well.

I'm in Florida by the way, probably has the worst reputation for guard abuse.

I know we're super serious on the subject of Self defense in regards to the Law Enforcement and Corrections fields, But I would also like to throw in Security Guards also must possess knowledge and are grossly under trained.

I know what you're thinking, "Security guards? Bunch of losers who sit around and watch stuff all day". You're 90% right. The other 10% can be in very stressful situations like hospitals, or large events.

The training I received through my company was ATROCIOUS. I understand they needed a fast way to train people, but they were training us to kill people and we were about to work in a hospital! Pretty much how it went was if all else fails, you kick the person in his knee, strike the groin, then strike the person in the nose or throat. It was about 3 hours of training, then off we were to the hospital.

I was asked if I did training before, I said I did a little BJJ. They told me to not do any of the BJJ techniques. I Laughed inside as I repeated a motion to strike a persons knee with kick, nose with an elbow, then temple with a backhand.

So be careful when you see that guy driving around in that golf cart. He might jump out and kill you outright lol.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 5:48am

Originally Posted by shotfghter

I know we're super serious on the subject of Self defense in regards to the Law Enforcement and Corrections fields, But I would also like to throw in Security Guards also must possess knowledge and are grossly under trained.

I know what you're thinking, "Security guards? Bunch of losers who sit around and watch stuff all day". You're 90% right. The other 10% can be in very stressful situations like hospitals, or large events.

The training I received through my company was ATROCIOUS. I understand they needed a fast way to train people, but they were training us to kill people and we were about to work in a hospital! Pretty much how it went was if all else fails, you kick the person in his knee, strike the groin, then strike the person in the nose or throat. It was about 3 hours of training, then off we were to the hospital.

Yep, that's a serious issue. Although it depends on local and regional policies, much the same often applies to hospital orderlies who may have to physically intervene/control mentally disturbed patients. If the institution/employer doesn't want to pay for serious training - if they're more interested in being able to tick the box marked "defensive training" - then everyone suffers. Way too many patients have been seriously injured and even killed by basically untrained orderlies trying to restrain them.

**RynoGreene** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 5:57pm

Originally Posted by dwkfym

Wow. What an eye opener this thread has been.

While I know that certain prisons have some atrocious abuse from the guards, I think its ridiculous that you guys couldn't carry nonlethal juvie or no juvie. At least have some good training.

As a civilian martial artist, even once a week martial arts training with sparring and randori like sessions would help so much. And I have a hunch that with properly trained, more confident guards, many of the abuse allegations will subside as well.

Yah, luckily I think our assistant chief knew that our training was ****, and would always look to hire level-headed people who had participated in contact sports. Football, boxing, judo, wrestling, it was almost comical how many ex-jocks were employed there. He very specifically asked me about my sports background in my interview. Maybe it was the teamwork thing, but I know he was lobbying for training improvements in our defensive tactics as well. Hiring people used to getting knocked around makes for security personnel who can keep functioning after getting clocked, and is a pretty good idea too.

**RynoGreene** · Posted On: 6/21/2011 6:22pm

Originally Posted by DdlR

Yep, that's a serious issue. Although it depends on local and regional policies, much the same often applies to hospital orderlies who may have to physically intervene/control mentally disturbed patients. If the institution/employer doesn't want to pay for serious training - if they're more interested in being able to tick the box marked "defensive training" - then everyone suffers. Way too many patients have been seriously injured and even killed by basically untrained orderlies trying to restrain them.

Amen to that. We had one kid who was fucking batshit insane when he wasn't on his meds. We sent him to a "secure" mental institution (not nearly up to our level of security), and we had to have one of our staff members with him at all times. When they first took him over, they insisted that they handle restraining him to the staff that took him over, should something happen. Of course it did, and he bloodied up a couple of their orderlies pretty quickly. Their response was just to have a **** ton of guys pounce on him, and start cranking on his arms.

After that our higher ups just told us "To hell with what their staff says. He's our responsibility." I knew the kid pretty well, and got along with him, so I got sent over. I had to restrain him two times, and could do it by myself. And like I mentioned before, my training wasn't anything close to spectacular, but the poor orderlies had absolutely no clue.