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  1. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 9:15am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't understand how all these BJJ black belts aren't going straight to the local College and training endlessly with their wrestlers. They shouldn't even be trying subs or getting on their backs for 6 months minimum. A good single leg isn't THAT hard to learn.
  2. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 9:35am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    I don't understand how all these BJJ black belts aren't going straight to the local College and training endlessly with their wrestlers. They shouldn't even be trying subs or getting on their backs for 6 months minimum. A good single leg isn't THAT hard to learn.
    The several million wrestlers who trained like animals every day of their lives for twenty years and would still get shrugged off with comical ease if they tried to single-leg Cormier dispute your definition of 'good'.

    Monson was a D-1 wrestler, by the way. He is not ignorant how do takedown, he's just not as good at it as a guy who came 4th at the Olympics.
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 6/20/2011 9:39am at .
  3. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 9:41am

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     Style: Novice Sub Grappler

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    I don't understand how all these BJJ black belts aren't going straight to the local College and training endlessly with their wrestlers. They shouldn't even be trying subs or getting on their backs for 6 months minimum. A good single leg isn't THAT hard to learn.
    There is also the whole universe of sweeps and throws from Judo, Sambo and Greco (sans sweeps). It's a lot easier to get the other guy on the mat if you have multiple credible ways of doing it, and a lot more complex for the guy defending (especially if he's looking to stand and strike). 'Reem's Incredible Hulk MT throws too. Grigg's had the throw of the night..
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  4. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 9:44am

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     Style: Novice Sub Grappler

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Monson was a D-1 wrestler, by the way. He is not ignorant how do takedown, he's just not as good at it as a guy who came 4th at the Olympics.
    Isnt that like being the 4th shortest midget?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 10:06am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    The several million wrestlers who trained like animals every day of their lives for twenty years and would still get shrugged off with comical ease if they tried to single-leg Cormier dispute your definition of 'good'.

    Monson was a D-1 wrestler, by the way. He is not ignorant how do takedown, he's just not as good at it as a guy who came 4th at the Olympics.

    So your theory is don't even try?

    'Reem is not an olympic wrestler.
  6. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 10:10am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe its because I train with a lot of good wrestlers. I just can't wrap my head around being so bad at takedowns that lying on the ground begging people to jump on you is an improvement. Is it my American bias? I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a wrestler better than the butt floppers at the top levels of MMA.
  7. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 10:28am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    So your theory is don't even try?
    No, that was Monson's fight plan. It may not have been an optimal one, but it wasn't based on some imagined total lack of take-down skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    'Reem is not an olympic wrestler.
    Oh yeah, Werdum's 'shots' were just to set up the guard pull. For me, he should be allowed to Aoki-style butt scoot chase Overeem if he wants to. Not least because it would be hilarious.
  8. ronaldk is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 11:32am


     Style: BJJ / freestyle wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    on Werdum vs. 'Reem, i have to say i find myself with Josh Barnett almost exactly. towards the end of this:



    Reem has a positional advantage, because his strength is where the fight starts; standing. Werdum's assumed faggotry stemming from him jumping into a fishflop at every possible chance can be considered cowardice. but i believe then so should Overeem's happiness to GTFO every time it hit the ground. many state that it'd be retarded to hang out in the guard of MMA's best HW bjj guy. so you are to suggest it is anywhere near SANE to allow yourself to stand in front of the best HW kickboxer in the world?

    the way i'm looking at it, Werdum was trying to do what he could standing, bring it down, and work. Overeem did little standing, and would refuse to engage whatsoever on the ground.

    Werdum was so scared of Overeem's striking, he would strike as little as he could (which turned out to be a surprising lot) and try to take it to the ground.

    Overeem was so scared of Werdum's grappling he was scared to strike.

    now, i am not saying Werdum should have been given the decision. but he is getting a lot of flack, or at least more than Overeem is getting, and he deserves about as much. he gassed, didn't really THROW it out there, and seemed genuinely timid when standing with a far inferior striker due to the possibility of a guard pull.

    on the point of BJJ guys not training wrestling... i dunno. imo, after being exposed to about a year of quality wrestling instruction i can conclude the following:

    a) holy crap does learning to wrestle make a crazy difference. i have not been taken down in a bjj tournament in like a year. even higher ranks DO NOT want to wrestle with me. (judo helped a fair bit for the gi, but when i started wrestling, i felt i was invincible with these guys). but don't forget....

    b) good wrestlers are motherfucking hard to take down. i found it easy to manhandle everyone near my level in BJJ, size notwithstanding, and even some guys who were year my senior to grappling in general. and i still didn't even hold a candle to the guys my wrestling coach had been teaching for a couple years. you'd get these 135lb'ers who were quick as **** and could still slam the **** out of my 190lb ass. guys my weight i thought were trying to juggle me. so if a wrestler knows they have that on you, they are bringing in that **** hard. and its difficult to do anything about it, specially if your not a striker. even then, look at Askren vs. Good @ Bellator, same situation in a different context. far superior wrestling skills have a habit of imposing their will, with one intention or another.
    Last edited by ronaldk; 6/20/2011 11:35am at .
  9. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 11:46am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cowardice doesn't enter into it for me. It is just plain poor strategy. He knew who he was fighting for quite some time. He must have known that Overeem wasn't going to go to the ground with him and have a grappling chess match.

    As bipedal creatures the onus is on the grappler to take the fight to the ground.
  10. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 12:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    As bipedal creatures the onus is on the grappler to take the fight to the ground.
    Exactly.

    Of course every fighter wants to play to their strengths. Overeem was able to force the fight to take place in his area of strength. Werdum was not. If Werdum doesn't want to strike, then it's on him to take down his opponent and hold him there. If he can't, then he needs to get his ass off the canvas, suck it up and fight standing.

    It is just lame to sit there on your ass, telling your opponent to "GET IN MY GUARD!!" He looked like a clown. Watching that fight was like watching a BJJ parody on the internet.
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