Strikeforce: Overeem vs Werdum. June 18, 2011

[Himura]

woah, i've NEVER heard anyone say that before. ever.

I have on multiple occasions, and it is annoying. They don't necessarily come out and say that it is unfair, but they imply it heavily with their comments on the fights starting standing up therefore giving strikers an advantage. I hear that all the time. I'm surprised you haven't.

As for me thinking trickery is unfair, I can see the point that you are making, but I don't like it. It is just my personal opinion that a fighter shouldn't pretend to be hurt for two reasons: 1. I dislike the dishonesty and 2. it's not a good strategy given how fights are scored, it is a pretty good bet you will lose on points if it goes to a decision.

ronaldk as for your comment on me being forced to say the same thing about Overeem for not engaging on the ground. You seemed to have missed what I meant when I brought up that this was an MMA match and he knew the rule e.g. he knew that he would be stood up if he refused to work. Therefore, it isn't the same as Overeem refusing to engage because Overeem's strategy was smart given the rule set whereas laying on the ground is monumentally stupid given the rules governing the match that they both agreed to beforehand.

It comes down to stupidity in the end. Werdum knew pretending to be knocked down to try and lure him into a ground fight does not score well with the judges neither does laying there like an idiot. So, after a few minutes of this realizing that it wasn't going to work and he would be losing on points, he decided to stick to a failing plan. In the end, he looked like an idiot.

Personally, I think if Werdum really wanted to win, he should have worked on his leg kicks and just started hammering Overeem. Do your best to stay out of punching range while throwing the leg kicks. You'll take away some of his power and frustrate him if you can mostly stay out range of his fists. I doubt he would be willing to throw many kicks in return for fear of the fight going to the ground, and the damage your kicks do might be enough to wear him down so you can get the fight to the ground as the rounds progress.

It might not work, but it is a better strategy than laying on your back praying that he will engage you on the ground before the fight gets stood back up.

[danno]

I have on multiple occasions, and it is annoying. They don't necessarily come out and say that it is unfair, but they imply it heavily with their comments on the fights starting standing up therefore giving strikers an advantage. I hear that all the time. I'm surprised you haven't.

been an MMA fan for over a decade, been training in various styles the whole time, trained with a number of UFC veterans and many many BJJ competitors, and this is the very first time in my life i've ever heard of people saying MMA should start on the ground, or that it's unfair to start standing. hell, i've never even heard someone say it about BJJ competition.

As for me thinking trickery is unfair, I can see the point that you are making, but I don't like it. It is just my personal opinion that a fighter shouldn't pretend to be hurt for two reasons: 1. I dislike the dishonesty

what do you think of his win over fedor? do you feel it was unfair?

should fighters be allowed to pretend they are gassed? what about "rope-a-dope"? should ali's tactics be banned from MMA?

what about feints, combinations, any techniques which deceive/trick/fool your opponent?

if you don't have deception, you don't have martial arts. you have arm wrestling.

2. it's not a good strategy given how fights are scored, it is a pretty good bet you will lose on points if it goes to a decision.

of course. it didn't work against overeem, and because of that werdum lost the fight. he's not a *****, or a ******, or a bitch. but his strategy didn't work, and he isn't good enough to beat overeem. he needs to make massive improvements in other areas if he wants to do that.

Personally, I think if Werdum really wanted to win

believe me, he wanted to win.

he should have...

...It might not work, but it is a better strategy than laying on your back praying that he will engage you on the ground before the fight gets stood back up.

i too think he could have taken better advantage of the strikes he began to land later in the fight. but he chose not to. but for all we know, he chose the highest-percentage strategy according to his skillset. he was probably right. how many people fight ubereem for 3 x 5 minute rounds to a decision?

it's up to werdum to decide what he wants to do. if it doesn't work, too bad, back to the drawing board.

i think the main reason people are angry and throwing insults at werdum, is because they simply weren't entertained by the fight. that's fine, but i don't see any reason to insult the fighters.

[DKJr]

I have on multiple occasions, and it is annoying. They don't necessarily come out and say that it is unfair, but they imply it heavily with their comments on the fights starting standing up therefore giving strikers an advantage. I hear that all the time. I'm surprised you haven't.

This is completely retarded. If anything I hear the opposite from BJJ guys. "Damn I wish we could work more takedowns." I fucking love to wrestle and drill takedowns, throws, and trips. The only BJJers I know who don't are over 45.

[Himura]

been an MMA fan for over a decade, been training in various styles the whole time, trained with a number of UFC veterans and many many BJJ competitors, and this is the very first time in my life i've ever heard of people saying MMA should start on the ground, or that it's unfair to start standing. hell, i've never even heard someone say it about BJJ competition.

Just to be 100% clear on this, I've only ever heard it said about matches where striking is involved and they complain about it giving strikers an unfair advantage since the fight starts standing up. Even if they don't say, it should start on the ground they still imply that there is an unfair advantage to strikers or that this somehow gives strikers an advantage.

I personally disagree since BJJ, Judo, etc. all work on taking the fight to the ground as part of their training, but this is the viewpoint of several BJJ guys I've talked to in real life and on the internet. Case and point from this thread:

Reem has a positional advantage, because his strength is where the fight starts; standing.

[DKJr]

That is a statement of fact, not whining about the realities of fighting. Overroid has stronger/better standup, all fights start standing there for Overroid has the starting advantage.

This doesn't equate to "BJJ guys whine about fights not starting on the ground."
BJJ whine about people stalling once they get the takedowns and apply little damage, but not that fights start standing.

[ronaldk]

^ danke.

also, it does say judo in my style field as well...

[sandbag2]

I met Werdum. Nice guy.