Attacking the turtle position

**BKR** · Posted On: 10/14/2011 4:38pm

Originally Posted by WhiteShark

Why are there so may rolls in Judo? Typically I love it when people turtle. I just take back control and start working. Is there a rule difference or other benefit that makes the roll so common in Judo?

I like it when they turtle too, I tell my students it's like a gift, don't insult the giver by refusing.

A couple of reason: 1, we can win matches with a pin. A lot of rolls end up in pins 2.) Time limited by progress needed to be made while doing ne waza 3. No points for back control 4.) Hand on face or prying up the head for Hadaka Jime or other shime waza (or neck cranks) is not allowed.

In modern competitive Judo, the roll helps to show the referee that you are doing something and it also disorients opponent and creates openings. It is similar to shifting from side to side or hip to hip when fighting off of your back.

**BKR** · Posted On: 10/14/2011 4:47pm

I'd say Peruvian Necktie equals or is closest to a variation of Hadaka Jime. jacket is not used at all.

Kata Te would use only one hand, jacket or no jacket. Necktie appears to use both hands to effect the shime.

Whiteshark, in Judo if you have a head and arm together, in general, it's legal. You can't hurt their neck that way, the arm pretty much protects it.

**BKR** · Posted On: 10/14/2011 4:51pm

When I started Judo, the definition of progress in ne waza was a lot more liberal, and there were more referees around who were old school and actually had some understanding of what comprises progress. Plus they just didn't want to stop the match.

So I learned ne waza was slow and deliberate, no need to make haste. That evolved over time,though, and as you get more skilled you can speed up. This was always contrasted to nage waza, where speed and timing was of great importance.

I think both approaches to ne waza work, it's just a matter of emphasis.

**judoka_uk** · Posted On: 10/14/2011 5:52pm

Originally Posted by BKR

So I learned ne waza was slow and deliberate, no need to make haste. That evolved over time,though, and as you get more skilled you can speed up. This was always contrasted to nage waza, where speed and timing was of great importance.

I think both approaches to ne waza work, it's just a matter of emphasis.

As always with Judo it comes down to the quality of your training, good clubs will do both relaxed 60% newaza being slow and methodical and also do 100% fast and furious newaza for competitions.

Talking to my coach over beers and the UFC a few weeks back I mentioned being surprised at the lack of drug testing in BJJ and it possibly explaining why they were able to go for 10-20 minutes on the floor.

He disagreed saying that he used to fight Neil at full contest speed and intensity for 20 minute practices back in the day, without the aid of any drugs. That blew me away, I can't imagine surviving a 2 minute onslaught by Neil let alone going toe to toe for 20 minutes...

**BKR** · Posted On: 10/14/2011 9:48pm

Originally Posted by judoka_uk

As always with Judo it comes down to the quality of your training, good clubs will do both relaxed 60% newaza being slow and methodical and also do 100% fast and furious newaza for competitions.

Talking to my coach over beers and the UFC a few weeks back I mentioned being surprised at the lack of drug testing in BJJ and it possibly explaining why they were able to go for 10-20 minutes on the floor.

He disagreed saying that he used to fight Neil at full contest speed and intensity for 20 minute practices back in the day, without the aid of any drugs. That blew me away, I can't imagine surviving a 2 minute onslaught by Neil let alone going toe to toe for 20 minutes...

I would imagine after training with him long enough, he knew enough of his patterns to (and was in good enough condition) to fend him off. Very impressive though to say the least.

My coach and I used to go like that, but he never went full speed, he was just too big and strong and skilled.

At the japanese dojo we'd do 45+ minutes of ne waza randori, 5 minute rounds (of me getting squashed mercilessly for the most part).

***jnp*** · Posted On: 10/15/2011 9:18am

Originally Posted by judoka_uk

He disagreed saying that he used to fight Neil at full contest speed and intensity for 20 minute practices back in the day, without the aid of any drugs. That blew me away, I can't imagine surviving a 2 minute onslaught by Neil let alone going toe to toe for 20 minutes...

Before my son was born I trained 5-6 days a week for almost 2 years. During this period we would occasionally spar at close to full speed for 15-20 minutes.

I have never taken any performance enhancing drugs besides caffeine in my life.

Now, I'd appreciate it if everyone got back to discussing attacking the turtle position.

Edit: I feel it's necessary to point out that while I had pretty decent stamina, neither I nor my training partner's had anything near Mr. Adam's skill level.