Attacking the turtle position

[judoka_uk]

For you judo guys struggling with the rolling arm bar thing, pick one and stick with it a while, one of the simpler ones, then when you get that one down pretty well, work on more complicated ones if you want, even better, work on how to react to uke defensive reactions to your initial attacks.

I know a lot of turtle attacks, but in the end success for me began with getting good at one or two things and chaining together responses to uke defenses.

They can't defend everything at once.

Absolutely, I have this problem I can demo a dozen turnovers and teach them, but I struggle applying them in a contest situation, because I haven't drilled anyone technique to anywhere near the level I've drilled stand up techniques.

And now I'm away from my Uni club and have barely drilled newaza for months going into full transition randori as I did the other day I can throw for ippon, throw and pin, but really struggle to throw and then turnover a turtle with fluidity and consistency.

[BKR]

Absolutely, I have this problem I can demo a dozen turnovers and teach them, but I struggle applying them in a contest situation, because I haven't drilled anyone technique to anywhere near the level I've drilled stand up techniques.

And now I'm away from my Uni club and have barely drilled newaza for months going into full transition randori as I did the other day I can throw for ippon, throw and pin, but really struggle to throw and then turnover a turtle with fluidity and consistency.

I teach to beginners a series of turnovers that teach basic skills that build basic coordination for more complex attacks (learned later) that require changes in orientation of the body. I don't worry too much at first about chaining together action reaction, as it's hard to do that without the coordination built up over time. These all start with the "scrub", and end up in pins (kesa gatame or yoko shiho/mune gatame, the first two pins learned).

The series ends up in the double lapel type roll, which introduces the longitudinal type of rolling motion. At the same time, they have been learning zempo kaiten ukemi, and that is a useful skill to have in this turnover, and requires more complicated manipulation of uke body. As that roll ends up in a form of kuzure kami shiho gatame or tate shiho gatame, it fits in with learning the basics of those two pins.

From there, after they learn to control uke body, they can transition to shime waza (usually Okuri Eri Jime) from the roll, although the ending position is different, and from there, the different basic shime attacks/controls/reactions to defenses. They end up with the transition to juji gatame from that position (after they have learned juji gatame basics).

I don't really expect them to be succesful often in shiai turning anyone over (although it does happen), I'm trying to build a set of basic skills to get them to a point where it's possible to drill accurately and with resistance and catch them off the transition from standing to ground. Which would be the next step in the process.

Anyway, hopefully people get the general idea.

[Coach Josh]

Yes the gut wrench I do will get you to kesa and I have tapped people with the technique on several occasions. I have a special entry I love to use on lightwieghts.

This technique is devestating and a great move. BJJ guys are still a little behind the curve when it comes to using the gi for control aspects on the ground. Every time I show how to use the gi to tie someone up people are amazed. "You can do that?" is the usual response.

[WhiteShark]

Why are there so may rolls in Judo? Typically I love it when people turtle. I just take back control and start working. Is there a rule difference or other benefit that makes the roll so common in Judo?

[judoka_uk]

Why are there so may rolls in Judo? Typically I love it when people turtle. I just take back control and start working. Is there a rule difference or other benefit that makes the roll so common in Judo?

Turtling is very common.

Pinning wins matches, hence getting someone onto their back is advantageous for transition from submission attempt to hold down.

Turtle defences are very advanced and so getting hooks in is hard.

Time is limited for newaza and rolling someone clearly shows 'progression' that referees are looking for.

[WhiteShark]

Turtling is very common.

Pinning wins matches, hence getting someone onto their back is advantageous for transition from submission attempt to hold down.

Turtle defences are very advanced and so getting hooks in is hard.

Time is limited for newaza and rolling someone clearly shows 'progression' that referees are looking for.

Interesting I was wondering if it was a little bit of "Look at my progress!". Also, I forgot you have to turn a turtle to get a pin, duh.

I don't buy the hyper advanced turtle defense = no hooks for you logic. Though as it relates to time limits I'm sure a really tight turtle is effective.



PS- Is a peruvian necktie legal in Judo?

[Coach Josh]

Like most things it boils down to the rules. Rolling and flipping your opponent over shows progession and an effort to finish the match. Also I find it more benefitial as it will open your opponent up and allow for easier entry into various positions.

Take okuri eri jime for example. In BJJ you will be on the guys back trying to gain controls and set the choke in a deligant and time consuming manner. The same choke done in Judo from what I call the lapel roll will open your opponent up expose the neck and land you in a seated position that allows for greater mobility, easier access to various techniques and control than just clinging to the guys back.

While BJJ will say I can control just fine from the back and the rules allow you to work there. In Judo matches they want activity and an active progression to finish. Its not that one way is better than the other its that in Judo they want the people who are WATCHING Judo to see some action. So the mentality bleeds over into practice again due to the rules.

Honestly which would you rather watch one person taking 5 minutes to set a RNC or two guys attempting 10 RNCs in 5 minutes?

Its not the Judoka do not understand or apprieciate the concepts of taking your time in newaza. Its there in basic Judo we preach and teach it all the time. The difference in competition its not about that its about displaying your skill level. Yes if you can control someone for 5 minutes and then choke them its effect just not entertaining to the spectators or an adequate demonstration of the various skills that make up grappling.

Again look to the NBA and NFL with the shot clocks and play clocks to see what will help to make the sport move at a pace that will interest people. Baseball is waining because of the time consumption.

Peruvian is legal.

[WhiteShark]

Does the peruvian necktie have another name in Judo? I was trying to research if it is used very often but all I see are threads about bjj guys asking if it is legal in Judo. It is one of my go to moves for turtle in Gi and No-Gi. That's why I'm asking. In Gi you can do it with your own lapel so it takes less room.

If this is too much of a derail for Ad Grap I'll start another thread.

[judoka_uk]

Does the peruvian necktie have another name in Judo? .

My guess would be Kata te jime as it looks like the forearm is doing the choking.

[BKR]

Yes the gut wrench I do will get you to kesa and I have tapped people with the technique on several occasions. I have a special entry I love to use on lightwieghts.

This technique is devestating and a great move. BJJ guys are still a little behind the curve when it comes to using the gi for control aspects on the ground. Every time I show how to use the gi to tie someone up people are amazed. "You can do that?" is the usual response.

In the BJJ classes I took, I used the gi to tie people up extensively. These were just blue belts, the purple belt instructor was wise to my sneaky judo ways.