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  1. #11
    judoka_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    To get them to move. Some guys will stall in this position so I use this one to cause a little discomfort.
    Why do you want them to move? To create momentum for the roll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    There are all kinds of ways to get them out of the turtle position but this one is easy for me and I get results with this one.
    Yeh absolutely, this one is a nice on, though. I'll be looking to play with this in training.

    Are there any common reactions uke will do to defend against this and what openings do those defences create, if any?

  2. #12
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    One thing I do not see in many attacks against the turtle is using movement to create space or off balance uke. I teach this as a fundamental part of attacking either turtle or pancake position.

    The basic movement I call the "scrub". I did not invent this term or concept, but I can't remember off the top of my head the name of the guy from whom I adopted the term.

    Basically, you grab uke as Team Python did, belt and collar, kneel facing uke rear with the inside leg down, outside leg up, and slide to your rear in a tsugi ashi type of step. Pushing against uke to his rear first also helps with getting action-reaction going.

    This tends to open uke up for an instant. I usually try to jam my outside knee between uke elbow and knee to be able to hold the space open to insert a hand or leg, keeping pressure down on uke with my chest, depending on where I'm going.j

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmike_ebw View Post
    Obviously you're a million miles ahead of me in terms of Judo, but I tried this tonight.

    Uke was a brown belt, and the response was, wriggled like ****, off balanced me. Then I was the turtle.
    :happy:
    Beware the silver bullet.

    There are fundamental skills to learn that make up the attack Team Python showed.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

  4. #14
    judoka_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post

    But, for example, something like this you'll rarely, if ever, see in BJJ, but it's quite good for Judo (and there are many awesome techniques from that intial grip):
    I'm not a massive of leaving them on their knees like that, but I do love that initial forearm control.

    I prefer to flatten them out first this offers up a whole host of attacks, there's a good video series on them on JudoSask's channel.

    Here's my favourite





    If you mix the Loshfelder video with the ones just posted then you basically get the 'Pedro' turnover that Jimmy Pedro showed my coach when he was in the US at the OTC in Colorado.

  5. #15
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
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    The "chicken wing" juji gatame entry is one of the armbars I was writing about as an option.

    I've had Jimmy Pedro do his Juji Gatame roll to me. It is so tight and so much pressure, I was about tapping before he even straightened my arm.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  6. #16

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    I don't use that particular technique I posted, precisely. But it was the only one I could easily find using that grip. You can even sit out directly into ude garami/waki gatame from it. The chicken wing is, indeed, one I was thinking of.

    I did not learn that grip in BJJ; it's a very Judo way of attacking the turtle. That grip is now on my mental list of ones I try very hard to keep people from getting (like, e.g., the deep over the back grip standing).

    BJJ guys are actually fairly predictable when attacking the turtle: they almost always go for the back with hooks. But they're also very good at it!

  7. #17
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    Missing posts are numbers 19 and 20 in this thread: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106979

  8. #18
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    I don't use that particular technique I posted, precisely. But it was the only one I could easily find using that grip. You can even sit out directly into ude garami/waki gatame from it. The chicken wing is, indeed, one I was thinking of.

    I did not learn that grip in BJJ; it's a very Judo way of attacking the turtle. That grip is now on my mental list of ones I try very hard to keep people from getting (like, e.g., the deep over the back grip standing).

    BJJ guys are actually fairly predictable when attacking the turtle: they almost always go for the back with hooks. But they're also very good at it!
    Ironically, grabbing the belt and getting both hooks in is commonly taught/seen in Judo as a beginners technique. It's just that once hooks are in, not many folks know how to do anything but Hadaka Jime, and that usually doesn't work.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Why do you want them to move? To create momentum for the roll?


    Yeh absolutely, this one is a nice on, though. I'll be looking to play with this in training.

    Are there any common reactions uke will do to defend against this and what openings do those defences create, if any?
    When I get this position I do not stay in it for long. As soon as I pop up on his back I am rolling him over to avoid him from trying roll. It is not like a knee on chest position where you can spend time trying to set up a submission. This technique has to be done as soon as you pop up on his back.

  10. #20

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    Robson Moura has a nice sequence on attacking the turtle on his Fusion Vol. 1 DVD set. He likes to place his knee behind the opponents butt (along with double lapel control) as opposed to placing it on his back. Works very well for us smaller grapplers, since a bigger opponent will more than likely buck our knee off their back. the lapel control helps to stop the opponent from rolling to either side, especially when you pull it far up under the armpits.

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