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  1. #1

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    Attacking the turtle position




    Here is the video I stated I would post from the other thread. I don't know the rules in Judo about placing the knee on the back but in BJJ there is no rule against it.

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    Jim_Jude's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, I like that. I know a big guy I'm gonna try that on next time he turtles. Thanks
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

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    blackmonk's Avatar
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    Thanks for the video. That's definitely a new angle that I can use.

    Lately, I've been using a lot of tilts, cradles, and rides to attack the turtle, because a lot of my training partners don't have experience with that stuff, coming from a BJJ background. Even though a lot of those wrestling techniques don't necessarily lend themselves to submissions, I find that it throws their game off being put in positions that they aren't used to.

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    This is awesome, thankyou. Going to try this out later I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post



    Here is the video I stated I would post from the other thread. I don't know the rules in Judo about placing the knee on the back but in BJJ there is no rule against it.
    Knee on back like that is OK in Judo as long as it does not dig into his spine, which you were not doing. You just are not allowed to bend the neck or spinal column the wrong way, like arching their back too far for example.

    Nice move, similar to a couple I'm familiar with. Whatever one chooses to do to attack the turtle, one has to drill it into oblivion and have answers to the common counters.

    Thanks again for taking the to make and post the video!

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    Perfectly legal in Judo, I believe.

    Turtle is one the areas where Judo and BJJ go off in different directions. This is an excellent technique for BJJ, both as a way of getting to the back (4 points) and setting up submissions. But this kind of turnover is disfavored in Judo unless you can submit the person very fast.

    Judo guys will do turnovers like that, although I haven't seen that particular one. For example, a simple one is to grab belt and collar pick uke up and throw the hooks in.

    The turtle turnovers were something that both confused and impressed me when I started Judo. They're more sophisticated than anything I learned in BJJ to attack that position, keeping in mind that Judo has different goals and that the turtle is far more common and important. Also Judo guys are far less likely to roll out of turtle and back to guard.

    But, for example, something like this you'll rarely, if ever, see in BJJ, but it's quite good for Judo (and there are many awesome techniques from that intial grip):




    There used to be an excellent video on youtube by Ezio Gamba demonstrating a series of competition turnovers, but it's no longer available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post



    Here is the video I stated I would post from the other thread. I don't know the rules in Judo about placing the knee on the back but in BJJ there is no rule against it.
    Yeah, we do this one and several other gambits.

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    judoka_uk's Avatar
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    That's nice, it seems vaguely familiar somehow, but I don't know where from.

    Its a similar principle to the 'Traineau roll'.

    What's the purpose of having the knee on the back, keep pressure and stop them going to inverted guard etc...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    That's nice, it seems vaguely familiar somehow, but I don't know where from.

    Its a similar principle to the 'Traineau roll'.

    What's the purpose of having the knee on the back, keep pressure and stop them going to inverted guard etc...?
    To get them to move. Some guys will stall in this position so I use this one to cause a little discomfort. There are all kinds of ways to get them out of the turtle position but this one is easy for me and I get results with this one.

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    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Perfectly legal in Judo, I believe.

    Turtle is one the areas where Judo and BJJ go off in different directions. This is an excellent technique for BJJ, both as a way of getting to the back (4 points) and setting up submissions. But this kind of turnover is disfavored in Judo unless you can submit the person very fast.

    Judo guys will do turnovers like that, although I haven't seen that particular one. For example, a simple one is to grab belt and collar pick uke up and throw the hooks in.

    The turtle turnovers were something that both confused and impressed me when I started Judo. They're more sophisticated than anything I learned in BJJ to attack that position, keeping in mind that Judo has different goals and that the turtle is far more common and important. Also Judo guys are far less likely to roll out of turtle and back to guard.

    But, for example, something like this you'll rarely, if ever, see in BJJ, but it's quite good for Judo (and there are many awesome techniques from that intial grip):




    There used to be an excellent video on youtube by Ezio Gamba demonstrating a series of competition turnovers, but it's no longer available.
    You can transition from the turnover Team Python posted to shime waza pretty quickly, or a pin as well. I'm sure you are familiar with what I call the "double lapel roll" attack against the turtle from either getting your hooks in, grabbing both lapels and rolling.

    I tend to not put uke so high on my chest when rolling, as it limits my mobility. As noted, in Judo you get no points for simply getting back mount, so we tend not to just get the position and hold it for very long. In fact, I want to end up in a pin or with a choke ASAP so uke does not have time to react.

    In the second video, I call that a "wrist drag" turnover, which as you hinted can end up in a pin, sankaku roll/choke, or different armbars.

    In the video, he uses to much upper body to pull the guy over, I prefer a kneeling tsugi ashi type step to the corner while keeping close contact with uke. I also use my left leg to hook over ukehead, kind of pinching it between my right knee and left heel/leg. This really controls uke very well when done correctly.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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