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  1. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 6:05am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    What are these societies? Please cite anthropological papers to go with your suppositions.
    Spartan women were given athletic and military training, and we have grave sites for the Scythian female warriors that the tales of the Amazons were based on.

    They didn't have the same kind of upper body muscular development as men from the same culture.

    Can you cite a paper supporting your theory that a population of women given sufficient athletic training will develop the same upper body muscle mass as a population of men from the same ethnic group given the same training?
    Last edited by Cullion; 6/21/2011 6:13am at .
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  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 10:46am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nobody has used any citations yet, btw.
  3. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 11:06am

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    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Spartan and Scythian female skeletons are still distinctly less heavy than male skeletons. The most primitive and ancient human hunter gatherer skeletons showed these differences.
    The differences in upper body strength are present in our closest relatives in the animal world, Chimpanzees.

    Hedge believes all these observed differences are entirely socially determined:-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

    http://jp.physoc.org/content/338/1/37.abstract
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/l47235487q162675/

    But there's no evidence for that. We have lots of examples of human females living extremely physically arduous lives, and as you'd expect they become much more physically robust than women who have easier lives. but they don't equal or out muscle the average male from the same population.

    Hedge is trying fight biochemistry with sociology. Good luck to him, but I think he's tilting at windmills. If he could show me one population where what he thinks would happen, has happened, then I'll listen.
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  4. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 2:58pm

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    You're arguing a straw man. I'm not arguing that the average female will ever equal the average male in strength because they will never be the same average weight. What i'm saying is that it is completely possible for them to approach the average strength of men of their weight (as an aside, one of my female coaches is ten pounds lighter than me but signifigantly stronger in the upper body and another is much lighter than me but much stronger pound for pound).


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    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
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  5. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 2:59pm

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    Spartan women were given athletic and military training, and we have grave sites for the Scythian female warriors that the tales of the Amazons were based on.
    Hardly unsexist societies, especially the Spartans. You can do better. You might as well cite sengoku era Japan while you're at it.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  6. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 4:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What would qualify as a non-sexist society in your book?

    Of course, the norms and habits of our western society cause even larger average differences in strength between men and women than our genetics alone, because men tend to lift weights and be proud of their biceps, and women tend to do pilates and be proud of their shapely butt.

    BUT: even with female professional athletes, who presumably have been training as hard as the men, there is still a significant strength difference compared to men of the same weight - let alone men of the same weight percentile. E.g., weightlifting records for women -69 kg: 128/158/286 kg. Men -69 kg: 165/195/357.5 kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._weightlifting ).
    In disciplines line shot put and discus, women reach roughly the same weight as men - with shots and discuses that weigh roughly half as much.

    That said, a well-trained, highly talented woman fighter may well be able to beat a good male opponent on a given day. Probably not consistently enough to earn and defend a spot among the top males.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  7. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 4:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    You're arguing a straw man. I'm not arguing that the average female will ever equal the average male in strength because they will never be the same average weight. What i'm saying is that it is completely possible for them to approach the average strength of men of their weight
    your turn- proof? you ask others for it, but you are making a social observation here based on what exactly? anecdotal evidence of your coach? i doubt she is average. my mum can bench her bodyweight, but she isnt an average person either and using her as an example would be a meaningless anecdote.

    (as an aside, one of my female coaches is ten pounds lighter than me but signifigantly stronger in the upper body and another is much lighter than me but much stronger pound for pound).
    well yeah but arent you a scrawny little dude anyway? ive thrown around with a lot of high level female athletes, none my size can match me strength for strength and i would hardly say im a serious lifter.
  8. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 5:39pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    You're arguing a straw man. I'm not arguing that the average female will ever equal the average male in strength because they will never be the same average weight. What i'm saying is that it is completely possible for them to approach the average strength of men of their weight
    It depends on the movement we're talking about. If you look at the strength tables at exrx.net, you'll see that the biggest gap between male and female strength (at a given bodyweight and at a given stage of training) is standing-press strength (i.e. stand up and press a bar over your head). The strength you can achieve is substantially dependent on the bone structure you've got to attach the muscles too, etc.. Women's shoulders and upper bodies don't support the same local muscle mass on average.

    If we took a man and a woman with the same muscle mass, and trained them for the same amount of time, I would expect the man to develop more additional mass overall in that time (because his body can produce more testosterone in response), but I'd especially expect him to add more muscle on his upper body. All the training studies and female skeletons from rugged societies support this. I'm open to counter examples.

    This doesn't mean I think 'girls shouldn't be allowed to do X', I just don't think there are good biological grounds for expecting the same upper body muscle development between a man and a woman when other things are equal.

    Men also tend to have other physical differences which I don't think are likely to be social in origin, like larger average lung capacity and larger hearts.
    Last edited by Cullion; 6/21/2011 5:47pm at .
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  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 5:50pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    (as an aside, one of my female coaches is ten pounds lighter than me but signifigantly stronger in the upper body and another is much lighter than me but much stronger pound for pound).
    When I was a blue belt I did randori with a girl who was +78kg, I was 90kg. She fought at the Junior worlds, but didn't medal.

    I could always move her and muscle her about, although her skill difference enabled her to escape and or counter the bad situations it put her in. Once my skill level rose she was no longer able to cope.

    I've also worked with Jane Bridge - 3x European Champion and World Champion at -48kg, Yuko Nakano - Hiroshima University squad player and Joyce Heron Commonwealth Champ and European Bronze medalist at -48kg.

    They were all strong for women, but not even on the same planet as male athletes.
  10. Himura is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2011 6:03pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    You're arguing a straw man. I'm not arguing that the average female will ever equal the average male in strength because they will never be the same average weight. What i'm saying is that it is completely possible for them to approach the average strength of men of their weight (as an aside, one of my female coaches is ten pounds lighter than me but signifigantly stronger in the upper body and another is much lighter than me but much stronger pound for pound).
    I would just like to point out we aren't talking about an above average woman vs an average man in her weight class. We are talking about an above average woman vs an above average man, and the man will have an unfair advantage. Her skill will only take her so far. She could probably do some damage in the male division for her weight class, but I doubt she would ever be able to crack the top ten and stay there for any period of time.
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