Drop Seoinage

**Mister** · Posted On: 5/06/2012 3:56pm

It was great, it's a shame I can only practice Judo twice a week.

**Krijgsman** · Posted On: 10/22/2012 9:39pm

After a year of Judo I still get flattened by all the dan ranks, most of the brown belts that are near to my size, and even a few of the particularly dedicated juniors.

I think the thing that sticks with me most is what one coach said: "Judo is hard. And that's ok because if it wasn't hard it wouldn't be worth doing." I miss that coach a lot after moving to Cali.

**Krijgsman** · Posted On: 10/22/2012 9:41pm

Sorry for the necro.

**Sorekara** · Posted On: 10/23/2012 3:52pm

Well,,,, since iiiitttt'ssss ALIVE! I'll comment.

I think the key to randori with kids is in having kids yourself. You're more familiar with their strengths and weaknessess. Also, having kids gives you more of a mindframe of "it's about them, not you." as some have quoted on this thread.

Personally, I enjoy working with kids, and especially enjoy working with people smaller than me. It's a great time to remind myself not to use strength. It's awesome for me to stand infront of a kid or short/light person. I know for a fact that If I wanted to, I could just pick them up by the the collar and toss them. It's more awesome to know how stupid that thought really is. I see this as a great opertunity for both of us.

Randori either nage or tachi with kids doesn't matter. Let them work, and at the same time you learn! I'm always amazed at how good alot of kids technique is and how strong smaller people really are.

A BB that I call, "The old man" once told me something that still sticks with me. I was uke for quite a few people. I wasn't frustrated, I was happy to be taking falls, and allowing someone else to perfect their technique. Anyway, The Old Man told me, "You're still learning! Everything here, is something that you'll learn from. You're not wasting your time."

So, IMHO, it's simple, let the lower ranks work, teach them, help them, and when you work with kids, let them be kids, and make them work. That's the beauty of Judo. No matter the situation you're still learning and growing.

(Edited to add) It's also refreshing to here BB's talk about techniques that are giving them hell after all these years. It gives me a sense that it's not over at Shodan, or even Sandan. It also shows me that even at Sankyu there's worlds that I'm clueless about and will remain so for some time.

**EWU_Judoka** · Posted On: 10/29/2012 5:57pm

If your off-balances are good enough you really shouldn't need to drop to execute the throw; but if you go in for it and it doesn't work maybe try to work a Hiza on the spin out so as to take advantage of the momentum you have from your failed throw.

**Krijgsman** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 1:01pm

Originally Posted by EWU_Judoka

If your off-balances are good enough you really shouldn't need to drop to execute the throw; but if you go in for it and it doesn't work maybe try to work a Hiza on the spin out so as to take advantage of the momentum you have from your failed throw.

The instructor I had who was a seoinage specialist said that if you cannot do a proper standing seoinage, you have no business doing a drop seoinage, since safe execution of the throw on the knees required very good technique with the upper body. He drop seoinage'd me and I fell as safely as any other throw (if not more safely).

It makes a big difference, considering the brown belt in that class who was trying to develop his drop usually either failed miserably to even get kazushi or spiked people on their heads.

My point (with your quote in mind) good standing seoinage technique should be developed instead. I agree with you. And I am long winded.

**BKR** · Posted On: 11/01/2012 3:52pm

Originally Posted by EWU_Judoka

If your off-balances are good enough you really shouldn't need to drop to execute the throw; but if you go in for it and it doesn't work maybe try to work a Hiza on the spin out so as to take advantage of the momentum you have from your failed throw.

You are wrong. You know that Seoi Otoshi is a separate technique from Seoi Nage (either Morote or Ippon versions), right? So Seoi Otoshi requires kuzushi to be done properly.

It's possible to do any throw with no kuzushi as well. Sometimes it's possible to "save" a bad standing seoi nage atttack by dropping, but it's not something that is all that common. Most Seoi Otoshi (commonly called "knee drop seoi nage or drop seoinage") are direct attacks done with intent from the beginning.

**BKR** · Posted On: 11/01/2012 3:54pm

Originally Posted by Krijgsman

The instructor I had who was a seoinage specialist said that if you cannot do a proper standing seoinage, you have no business doing a drop seoinage, since safe execution of the throw on the knees required very good technique with the upper body. He drop seoinage'd me and I fell as safely as any other throw (if not more safely).

It makes a big difference, considering the brown belt in that class who was trying to develop his drop usually either failed miserably to even get kazushi or spiked people on their heads.

My point (with your quote in mind) good standing seoinage technique should be developed instead. I agree with you. And I am long winded.

I don't teach Seoi Otoshi directly. It takes a lot of dedication to standing seoi nage versions to be able to do a reasonable Seoi Otoshi. Students will have early success by doing to the knees, but their overall developement tends to slow down.

There are of course exceptions to this, super coordinated and athletic individuals who can learn just about anything quickly. For overall long term development though it's best to avoid Seoi Otoshi or falling to the knees for any throw early in Judo training.

**Krijgsman** · Posted On: 11/05/2012 1:32pm

Originally Posted by BKR

You are wrong. You know that Seoi Otoshi is a separate technique from Seoi Nage (either Morote or Ippon versions), right? So Seoi Otoshi requires kuzushi to be done properly.

It's possible to do any throw with no kuzushi as well. Sometimes it's possible to "save" a bad standing seoi nage atttack by dropping, but it's not something that is all that common. Most Seoi Otoshi (commonly called "knee drop seoi nage or drop seoinage") are direct attacks done with intent from the beginning.

Indeed. The brown belt I mentioned in my earlier post would consistently fail to get kuzushi, so I would just drop my hips and either get his back and go for a choke or just step over his crouching form. When he got kuzushi first though, I'd go flying.

**NeilG** · Posted On: 11/05/2012 1:51pm

Quite a lot of the time I see this throw executed, the attacker spins and drops, hangs on like a leech, and eventually the two go for a slow roll together. This is then called "ippon" because there was full back contact. This is what sticks in my craw. So it's really a problem I have with modern judging standards more than the throw itself.