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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2011 5:21pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Has the West got Ippon Seoi nage wrong?

    I've noticed increasingly that beginners really struggle with Ippon seoi nage done from the sleeve and that it is quite rare to see a succesful ISN done from the sleeve in shiai.

    Its far more common to see ISN done succesfully in shiai from a lapel grip.




    Doing ISN from a lapel grip as opposed to a canonical sleeve grip has several advantages.

    It keeps uke's tsurite hand on the lapel during the technique so if the throw fails tori still has good control of uke's upper body for the combination.

    How many times have you been practicing ISN combinations done to the sleeve side and after the ISN found yourself groping for the sleeve in order to do the Ko uchi gari or follow up technique?

    Lapel side ISN means that if the technique fails the lapel and consequent upper body control is still there to attack the chest for the ashiwaza.

    Another advantage of performing ISN from the lapel grip is that it keeps uke's upper body much more under control on entry. When attacking with sleeve ISN a common problem is that releasing the lapel to clamp the sleeve side arm means you have too little control over uke's upper body and it becomes very hard to enter for the technique without uke moving out of range.



    Also the specific shoulder you'e attacking is firmly under control as a result of the lapel grip making the catching and clamping down of the shoulder much easier to achieve.

    Doing ISN to the lapel side makes it much easier to be able to throw to left and right. It compliments other major forward techniques such as Tai otoshi:



    And it allows you to keep your right or left lapel grip without changing grips. Thus reducing the warning you give to your opponent about your ability to throw to both sides.

    The Japanese do it that way. Source: Ptnippon + watching videos. Ptnippon once said that in Japan everyone does Morote seoi nage in the normal way and then does ISN off the lapel.



    If you watch Japanese seoi nage specialists they hardly ever throw with ISN from the sleeve and nearly always do it from the lapel.

    The most famous ISN specialist of all, Koga. Modified his own gripping so that he effectively had a lapel grip on both sides of uke's body with all the advantages of control that, that gives as outlined above.



    So do we need to re-think how we teach Ippon seoi nage? Thoughts.
  2. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2011 5:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Stop giving away my secrets you asshole!

    I throw seoi left and right from either lapel. The lefty version catches a lot of people out, as it's a left handed throw from a standard right handed grip, you don't need to adjust at all.
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2011 7:02pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Stop giving away my secrets you asshole!

    I throw seoi left and right from either lapel. The lefty version catches a lot of people out, as it's a left handed throw from a standard right handed grip, you don't need to adjust at all.
    So after writing the article and fantasising about launching people with a left seoi nage, I've never really practiced, next randori. I went and did some shadow uchikomi with some shoes.

    I'm terrible at left seoi nage.

    Anyway any people got any other thoughts?
  4. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2011 7:08pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was taught the lapel grip only. Is the sleeve grip really standard?
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  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2011 7:42pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    I was taught the lapel grip only. Is the sleeve grip really standard?
    All Judo throws have the hikite/sleeve version as standard.
  6. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2011 8:23am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's the way we do it. Lapel-side ippon seoi nage is pretty commonly recommended in my dojo as a opposite side throw, along with lapel-side sase and sode tsuri komi goshi. That lapel side ippon seoi nage is particularly good from kenka yotsu, as long as it's not too extreme.
  7. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2011 8:47am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I'm terrible at left seoi nage.

    Anyway any people got any other thoughts?
    Grabbing the wrist of the hand that is in the lapel instead of going for uke's armpit.
  8. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2011 8:56am


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's usually taught with a sleeve grip because it's a common beginners throw. It's easier to learn the hikite pulling motion while gripping the sleeve.
  9. OSPF is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2011 9:42am


     Style: Sōsetsuken

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not wrong...it is just that the lapel grip is a tighter fit than the sleeve. Both versions should be practiced ad nauseum(sp?) as sometimes you are not going to get anything but some bullshit sleeve grip, especially at the higher levels of play.
  10. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2011 9:50am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    So after writing the article and fantasising about launching people with a left seoi nage, I've never really practiced, next randori. I went and did some shadow uchikomi with some shoes.

    I'm terrible at left seoi nage.

    Anyway any people got any other thoughts?
    Yeah, left seoi from a right-handed grip works great and it's something we practice at our club whenever we do a session on seoi.
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