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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2011 2:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilenzo View Post
    As i'm sure you know Aikido was designed, at start, as a sort master class for blackbelts in other MAs...
    Do you know what works even better as a "master class for blackbelts in other MA"? More of the other MA.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. Evilenzo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2011 1:56am


     Style: Aikido, Aikiken, Aikijo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's true, for most people.

    Those were people who tried Aikido (some of them by being bested by the Founder) and decided that it was worth their time, especially for those who had mastered their first MA and didn't want to pursue teaching.

    You can question the reasoning behind that, but it was their decision, not yours.
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 8:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilenzo View Post
    That's true, for most people.
    No, it's true for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilenzo View Post
    You can question the reasoning behind that, but it was their decision, not yours.
    It's their decision to be stupid, sure. And yours.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  4. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 11:16pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Aikidoka have to remember that the punch that is "left out" is a snapshot in time, just as the movements in an Aikido technique are taken it that same snapshot. That is why we train slow. Not just for safety, but because we are slowing down time to learn the intricacies of a movement. We often think of the flow of an Aikido technique, or any technique from any system, as 1,2,3,4.... when really it should be thought as just "go". We get so wrapped up in the 1,2,3,4, that we never get beyond combining them into one fluid movement. Breaking a movement down to it's base components may be necessary for learning purposes to some or most, but at some point, they must realize that those numbers need to go away. This is why some Aikidoka have very choppy technique. You can actually see their mind counting on then two then three in their technique.

    This is why entry and blend is important. If you learn to blend with incoming force, even if you are counting still, at least you have avoided being struck or cut, and if done correctly, you are in a safe or even advantageous position slightly behind the attacker.
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 11:18pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    That is why we train slow. Not just for safety, but because we are slowing down time to learn the intricacies of a movement.
    No, Aikido trains slow because it sucks. It doesn't know how to train fast.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  6. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2011 11:35pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    No, Aikido trains slow because it sucks. It doesn't know how to train fast.
    This. Truthfully you have to train those techniques slowly because they are damn near impossible to pull off. The only way I've ever seen them work at full speed is when nage employs an extreme kuzushi. If this is done to the point to where uke is nearly falling over, the throw itself becomes completely pointless, because you've already taken so much balance that you've already won.

    On the other hand, the better the fighter, the less chance you have of taking all that balance from them easily, so you end up running away over and over. This isn't something you can keep doing and hope to actually win the confrontation against a skilled opponent.

    If your timing is that much better than your opponents then there is no reason why you couldn't beat them with any number of techniques.

    Just one Aikijokers honest opinion.
  7. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2011 12:02am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sankyo is very easy to pull off, and nikyo in certain scenarios is even easier. The problem is that people can't stop thinking in a 1,2,3, format. Yeah if you stop at one and look for two, the moment has passed and it's not there, hence the nearly impossible to pull off. Stop thinking of the blend as one, and think in terms of go. The key is to flow, not stop and wait for the next step.

    The errors that get made are that, and the belief they need to catch the hand or wrist to get a technique in. If you try to blend at the wrist or hand you are late, you will miss it, or in the case of a knife, you will get cut or lose some fingers. Blend at Uke's elbow or really right above the elbow where the bicep ends. That way when you go to grab, you are grabbing the forearm to slide down to the wrist or hand.

    You could just take his balance from there and make him fall or stumble, but what happens next? He gets back up and you start all over, but now he's mad and maybe a little embarrassed, if people are watching. You use a technique to control him after. Here is where theory really clashes with reality. In the dojo you pin and Uke taps. In real life, you probably want to twist and torque that limb till something tears or breaks. I have the ability to handcuff at this point, so to pin works for me here too.

    If I wasn't at work though, I would try and blend initially and resort punching and or kicking to end the exchange as quick as possible.
  8. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2011 12:47am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    Sankyo is very easy to pull off, and nikyo in certain scenarios is even easier. The problem is that people can't stop thinking in a 1,2,3, format. Yeah if you stop at one and look for two, the moment has passed and it's not there, hence the nearly impossible to pull off. Stop thinking of the blend as one, and think in terms of go. The key is to flow, not stop and wait for the next step.

    The errors that get made are that, and the belief they need to catch the hand or wrist to get a technique in. If you try to blend at the wrist or hand you are late, you will miss it, or in the case of a knife, you will get cut or lose some fingers. Blend at Uke's elbow or really right above the elbow where the bicep ends. That way when you go to grab, you are grabbing the forearm to slide down to the wrist or hand.

    You could just take his balance from there and make him fall or stumble, but what happens next? He gets back up and you start all over, but now he's mad and maybe a little embarrassed, if people are watching. You use a technique to control him after. Here is where theory really clashes with reality. In the dojo you pin and Uke taps. In real life, you probably want to twist and torque that limb till something tears or breaks. I have the ability to handcuff at this point, so to pin works for me here too.

    If I wasn't at work though, I would try and blend initially and resort punching and or kicking to end the exchange as quick as possible.
    Right, but like i said, the better the fighter, the harder it will be to take his balance, and the window of opportunity to apply a controlling hold will get smaller, because he will be better at regaining his balance. This is assuming the guy is a competent attacker with an idea of how to keep his base and regain it if it's lost.

    As for ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, etc. I like them personally. They make great come-along holds and can be used for control very well. My beef with sankyo is that nobody is going to let you get that perfect angle on their arm, the millisecond I feel the twist I reflexively counter-rotate and post downward, not to mention what my other arm can do if you don't have it locked in. It makes an excellent headlock escape, and if you can get it, then it's good, but it's not easy to do in a resistant situation. Nikkyo is painful as hell, but if you end up in it as an attacker you've obviously over-extended and are going to pay for it. I've also noticed that if you can extend into the nikkyo, it'll give you an opportunity to affect nage's base enough to null the technique. Again, that's if it's not completely locked in.

    Though the problem I run into using controlling holds is that they aren't bullet-proof (metaphorically or literally). Like I said before, if the skill and strength deficit between you and your opponent is so great that these are viable techniques, then there are likely many many many options at your disposal that could work better given the situation. If, however, you are fighting someone close to your skill level, controlling holds (such as ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, etc) are likely to be reversed, countered, or resisted into futility. The only way around this, is kuzushi, a whole hell of a lot of taking balance ("Take it all" Maruyama Sensei says), rhythm, to move in a syncopated pattern as to not be predicted and countered and timing, to catch your opponent at the exact moment when they think they have you, extension, to remain compact and strong while your opponent is reaching beyond his position of strength, and most importantly to avoid whatever attack is coming in the first place.

    Which is really god damn hard to do all of that without messing anything up. So like I said, pulling off an aikido technique isn't as easy as it seems, especially when encountering resistance.
  9. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2011 1:39am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokikai90 View Post
    Right, but like i said, the better the fighter, the harder it will be to take his balance, and the window of opportunity to apply a controlling hold will get smaller, because he will be better at regaining his balance. This is assuming the guy is a competent attacker with an idea of how to keep his base and regain it if it's lost.

    As for ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, etc. I like them personally. They make great come-along holds and can be used for control very well. My beef with sankyo is that nobody is going to let you get that perfect angle on their arm, the millisecond I feel the twist I reflexively counter-rotate and post downward, not to mention what my other arm can do if you don't have it locked in. It makes an excellent headlock escape, and if you can get it, then it's good, but it's not easy to do in a resistant situation. Nikkyo is painful as hell, but if you end up in it as an attacker you've obviously over-extended and are going to pay for it. I've also noticed that if you can extend into the nikkyo, it'll give you an opportunity to affect nage's base enough to null the technique. Again, that's if it's not completely locked in.

    Though the problem I run into using controlling holds is that they aren't bullet-proof (metaphorically or literally). Like I said before, if the skill and strength deficit between you and your opponent is so great that these are viable techniques, then there are likely many many many options at your disposal that could work better given the situation. If, however, you are fighting someone close to your skill level, controlling holds (such as ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, etc) are likely to be reversed, countered, or resisted into futility. The only way around this, is kuzushi, a whole hell of a lot of taking balance ("Take it all" Maruyama Sensei says), rhythm, to move in a syncopated pattern as to not be predicted and countered and timing, to catch your opponent at the exact moment when they think they have you, extension, to remain compact and strong while your opponent is reaching beyond his position of strength, and most importantly to avoid whatever attack is coming in the first place.

    Which is really god damn hard to do all of that without messing anything up. So like I said, pulling off an aikido technique isn't as easy as it seems, especially when encountering resistance.
    I can tell you from experience, outside of a dojo, against resisting convicted felons, who by definition, are the very type of people, those who train for self defense, are training to defend against; that sankyo and nikyo are veritable gimmes! I once intervened in a fistfight, between two crips, by grabbing the elbow of the one closest to me and reaching in and applying sankyo to his left arm. The other had been sprayed, but due to position the one closest to me had not been hit, and was only coughing a little. Needless to say he had a clear advantage over the other guy. As I was applying sankyo to his left arm he tried to resist by pulling his arm back into him, but that only placed his wrist more into my grasp. He tried to spin around to face me or swing at me possibly, and I did what you do in sankyo and just stepped with him as I locked sankyo in and got him up on his toes. From there I pointed him toward the nearest chow hall table and using more of a yonkyo fishing rod casting technique laid him out face down across the table with the sankyo locked in. From there, I pulled my handcuffs, ordered him to place his right hand behind his back, and proceeded to restrain him.

    I have had nikyo work a number of times where I have had to initiate contact with an inmate who is refusing orders but not particularly aggressive. This really frustrates some of my partners cause the inmates just stand there waiting for you to try and grab them or tackle them, then they cry excessive force afterward.

    These situations take great awareness of your position related to the inmate and the environment. I like to keep the conversation going till I can get within arm's reach. I then usually will grab at his left elbow with my right hand, and move in to get his left wrist with my left. Usually, they react by trying to push against the grab and push or hit into me. From there they basically give you nikyo as you make contact with their left forearm and slide down to the wrist for the lock. From there it's basic commands with corresponding torque with the lock. If they don't push back they withdraw. You just step at an angle behind them pulling their arm down towards the middle of their feet stepping across their rear center line. If they don't start to go down here they will turn into you at which point you are back at nikyo.

    I know it sounds over simplified, but this is how they actually worked. Pretty much anytime you can get behind them, sankyo is open, and if you can get their elbow nikyo should be obtainable. Part of the problem with Aikido is it is actually easier than it seems. We make it more difficult by over thinking it.

    Yes, if you tried to do these on an Aikidoka, you better have perfect timing and perfect technique, or you will be countered like you described. In my experience the key is to keep trying for that position behind their shoulder. The time it takes them to process this and turn around gives you an opportunity to secure the locks. If it's not happening, you can always abandon the locks and go for the take down and go for the limb once he's down. In my situations I am fortunate that by then I probably have half a dozen other officers there to jump on him too. I have never had to come to that though.

    I have been training in Aikido for over seventeen years. I don't think I'm any better at Aikido than anyone else who has trained near that long, or even half as long. I know getting the opportunity to use my training on resisting convicted felons has given me a different view of Aikido and its application than those I have trained with including a few sensei. Even some other LEOs I train with have not had the experience I have in actually applying techniques.

    I try to bring this experience to my practice. When I am uke, if I see an opening I take it. Even if I'm spoiling senseis' demo. My current sensei appreciate this. It takes the practice out of fairy tale land and shows that just because you are doing Aikido doesn't mean someone will stand and watch you do your technique on them.
  10. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2011 3:13pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    Yes, if you tried to do these on an Aikidoka, you better have perfect timing and perfect technique, or you will be countered like you described. In my experience the key is to keep trying for that position behind their shoulder. The time it takes them to process this and turn around gives you an opportunity to secure the locks. If it's not happening, you can always abandon the locks and go for the take down and go for the limb once he's down. In my situations I am fortunate that by then I probably have half a dozen other officers there to jump on him too. I have never had to come to that though.
    First of all, aikidoka are definitely not the only people who can figure out how to reverse aikido throws. I'd go as far to say most aikidoka have developed terrible habits in attacking. (Over-reaching, planting their feet, taking falls before the technique is on) I see this at the highest level, even in my own style of Aikido.

    It's this kind of "this is how it is" attitude that gets aikido such a bad rep. I mean fights don't go down how they do in aikido class. I've used aikido in a self defense setting as well, it doesn't mean it was the most effective thing to do at the time. And every time i was able to do this, it was because I was so much faster, smarter, and more experienced than the person I could have done any number of things.

    When you are fighting against someone who is actually skilled in really any kind of fighting, it requires everything that i mentioned to not get reversed with one of the throws in aikido. Ergo Risk > Reward relative to the many other techniques out there. I, for instance, do not ever ever ever ever let people control my wrists, ever. This is because I know how painful and immobilizing wrist locks can be. If the guy has any idea of what these wristlocks are, and any experience with them I imagine he'll have similar goals. This just makes it more and more difficult to pull these off in this particular setting.

    Just try having someone who competes in Muay Thai attack you and try to throw him. Or BJJ, Judo, or any competition based sport dealing with grappling at all. If you can do all this to them then I'll accept your argument as valid, but truth be told if it doesn't work against a professional, then in my eyes it's just a bunch of tricks to bully less experienced fighters with.

    By the way, I have done the above and it wasn't pretty for me. Though I did throw the Judo guy (with a judo throw lol).
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