How do you respond to this assertion?

**Vieux Normand** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 3:06pm

A couple of decades ago, it was common to see women come out of "self-defense" courses with keys sticking out from between their knuckles. Walking down the street, on buses, just about anywhere.

Nothing conveys "I'm scared" as thoroughly as little displays like this.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 3:22pm

Originally Posted by WhiteShark

My wife did knockdown karate with me for a few years. The most important thing she learned is how to not immediately panic when you get hit or get the wind knocked out of you. That is almost always missing from these short term self defense courses. The other thing she learned is that she does not in any way want to tangle with a man that means her serious harm. Keep alert, make space and GTFO.

That's a problem with most "Self defense" courses. They present them that as if the person, man or woman, will be able to enter and exit an altercation unscathed. Even thought our combatives courses are short we try to instill a couple of thinks, like the human body isn't made of glass. The Achieve the Clinch drill is there to teach them that they can get hit and still continue the fight. It forces them to work through their fear and pain. The instructors wear 16 oz boxing gloves and the trainees are not allowed to hit back. They can only close the distance and achieve a clinch. Once they get the clinch round is over. They must go through this drill 4 times. The reactions they have to being hit during the first round ranges from comical to just plain sad. Usually by round 3 (where the are told the punches are coming at them harder) most start performing better. After everything is said and done it does surprise some of them that they were able to work through it and complete the drill.

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 3:29pm

Totally, if I ever did a self defense class I would want everyone to have to get hit hard enough to shake them up before they could "graduate". You just can't be prepared for that first shock any other way.

**Son of Thunder** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 3:50pm

Hollander, J. A. (2004). "I can take care of myself": The impact of self-defense training on women's lives. Violence Against Women, 10, 205-235.
Brecklin, L. R., & Ullman, S. E. (2005). Self-defense or assertiveness training and women's responses to sexual attacks. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 20, 738-762.
David, W. S., Simpson, T. L., & Cotton, A. J. (2006). Taking charge: A pilot curriculum of self-defense and personal safety training for female veterans with PTSD because of military sexual trauma. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 21, 555-565.

This is just what I have in my stack-o-stuff in my office. There's lots more. The best of the three is Brecklin & Ullman (2005), as they studied the effect of training on subsequent assault experiences. The research evidence supports the argument that this stuff is in fact effective.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 4:14pm

Did you read my first post?

**Son of Thunder** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 4:57pm

Originally Posted by Omega Supreme

Did you read my first post?

Yes, but I'm not sure what Thomas Kuhn has to do with the topic. The study that I mentioned (Brecklin & Ullman, 2005) not only looked at the likelihood of being attacked, but what happened during attacks (did they fight back, was the defense successful, etc).

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 5:08pm

Originally Posted by Son of Thunder

Yes, but I'm not sure what Thomas Kuhn has to do with the topic. The study that I mentioned (Brecklin & Ullman, 2005) not only looked at the likelihood of being attacked, but what happened during attacks (did they fight back, was the defense successful, etc).

Well if you want to take a intellectual approach why don't you take a moment and re read the OP. The question was addressing a woman's confidence as a first line of self defense.

The studies done on Breckling and Ullman are just empirical evidence and results of actual attacks, if I remember it correctly. So the subject at hand is "Does a woman's confidence level and exercises that build their confidence level" effect a self defense situation. We'd have to look at other exercises that help do this. Hence my argument about a paradigm shift in order to prove the woman's point of view. So if you're just going to sit here and regurgitate rhetoric and not actually contribute direct input, your argument just becomes posturing.

Further mode if you're just going to be an asshole about it then get off the thread. I simply asked a question so that we could continue with the discussion.

**Phlogiston** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 5:31pm

I can answer the "why teach this in the first place?" question (someone already did): money. I think it is tapping into a market that the places that teach real stuff can't. Imagine you are (or think you are) too old/weak/injured/small whatever to do something "real", but this kata thing seems doable. What concerns me more is the assertion that ANY response will improve outcomes about the same. So if you spam a silly wrist-thingie, it is as good as boxing your opponent when it comes to self-defense. It feels like this shouldn't be true, but there are publications that claim it. So the instructor argues that kata won't help you win the UFC, but it is just as good as boxing for self-defense so why not teach all these people kata who wouldn't participate in self-defense training if it involved, you know, _work_.

**Son of Thunder** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 5:31pm

Originally Posted by Omega Supreme

The studies done on Breckling and Ullman are just empirical evidence and results of actual attacks, if I remember it correctly. So the subject at hand is "Does a woman's confidence level and exercises that build their confidence level" effect a self defense situation. We'd have to look at other exercises that help do this.

Okay.

In the specific study I mentioned, the researchers combined self-defense and assertiveness training into a single variable, so that specific question cannot be answered by this study. Examining the different effects of self-defense training and confidence-building is further complicated by the fact that self-defense training has been shown to boost confidence. Another study* found education/assertiveness training by itself to also be effective at avoiding revictimization.

Brecklin & Ullman found that women who had trained were more likely to have stopped their attacker, so this is not just about avoiding assaults, it is about stopping and escaping assaults once they have begun. So if the question is whether the training works to stop an assault in progress, or works to avoid assaults in the first place by cultivating confidence and situational awareness, the answer seems to be "both."

*Marx, B. P., Calhoun, K. S., Wilson, A. E., & Meyerson, L. A. (2001). Sexual revictimization prevention: An outcome evaluation. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 69, 25-32.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 6/14/2011 6:36pm

Originally Posted by Son of Thunder

Okay.

In the specific study I mentioned, the researchers combined self-defense and assertiveness training into a single variable, so that specific question cannot be answered by this study. Examining the different effects of self-defense training and confidence-building is further complicated by the fact that self-defense training has been shown to boost confidence. Another study* found education/assertiveness training by itself to also be effective at avoiding revictimization.

Brecklin & Ullman found that women who had trained were more likely to have stopped their attacker, so this is not just about avoiding assaults, it is about stopping and escaping assaults once they have begun. So if the question is whether the training works to stop an assault in progress, or works to avoid assaults in the first place by cultivating confidence and situational awareness, the answer seems to be "both."

*Marx, B. P., Calhoun, K. S., Wilson, A. E., & Meyerson, L. A. (2001). Sexual revictimization prevention: An outcome evaluation. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 69, 25-32.

I concur with the study but it isn't the question at hand. The funny thing about that study is that earlier it was complete conjecture by most instructors that it was true. As for your last study it's not one that I am familiar with. I will try to look it up.