Fake Certificates

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 6/11/2011 2:19pm

Originally Posted by HenryT

So what it comes down to is that anybody who wanted to could sell doctored and completely phoney certificates in my name and under my signature – and there’s not a damn thing I could do about it? What a strange planet we live on!

No, you could do something about it. It is up to you how far you would want to go.

**ErekOswald** · Posted On: 6/15/2011 2:18pm

Certificates by the Sack..Many people on the internet have 75 or more of them..if you pay up you get one of many for sale, Had a BB come in with impressive credentials on paper yet lacked the skill. knowledge and common language of the style.. He left after we called him out on it..

**HenryT** · Posted On: 6/15/2011 3:32pm

"Certificates by the Sack..Many people on the internet have 75 or more of them..if you pay up you get one of many for sale ..."

Very true. But the problem with these "fit-to-print" offerings is not so much that they are fake as that they are actual forgeries: real certificates with real signatures that can be falsified to order, so that anyone who buys one can seem to have been awarded dan rank by Yamaguchi Gogen, etc.. This seems to me a much more blatant abuse than the run-of-the-mill fantasy diplomas that we have all seen so often. The site also has on it Harvard and Yale degree diplomas with real signatures on them - presumably scanned from genuine originals - that you can have your name added to for $50 or so! I have sent emails to the Japan Karate Association and the Goju Kai Hombu alerting them to what this guy is doing. No reply so far. Maybe nobody cares? It's a mighty sorry reflection on the modern world if they don't. It's just plain amazing to me that this kind of scam doesn't seem to be illegal.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 6/15/2011 3:59pm

Address the issue not the "modern world." If it wasn't for the "modern world" Diploma Mill Colleges, Fake Military persons, and other frauds would still be operating with impunity. This allegedly sorry reflection you see has operated in many fashions for hundreds if not thousands of years.

There is a sucker born every minute wasn't coined in 21st century.

As was stated, it is illegal when you can provide proof. Just like anything else in America you have to prove they sold a forgery. There are so many disclaimers on that website it is not illegal on the surface.

**HenryT** · Posted On: 6/15/2011 6:31pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Address the issue not the "modern world." If it wasn't for the "modern world" Diploma Mill Colleges, Fake Military persons, and other frauds would still be operating with impunity. This allegedly sorry reflection you see has operated in many fashions for hundreds if not thousands of years.

There is a sucker born every minute wasn't coined in 21st century.

As was stated, it is illegal when you can provide proof. Just like anything else in America you have to prove they sold a forgery. There are so many disclaimers on that website it is not illegal on the surface.

But Diploma Mill Colleges, fake military persons and other frauds ARE still operating with (apparent) impunity; and I AM addressing the issue, which is (a) what can be done to stop this? and (b) if nothing, why the hell not? You obviously know more about it than I do, but I find it hard to believe that someone can offer for sale, and can explicitly offer to alter, a document under somebody else's signature, and that's OK. I guess we can only wait and see what the JKA and Goju Kai have to say about it. Maybe I should let Harvard and Yale have an email also. I guess that goes beyond Bullshido's remit, but I'd be happy to bet that they won't do nothing.

**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 6/15/2011 6:42pm

The disclaimer is their coverage. Misuse, would be on the consumer, if I'm reading it right.

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**It is Fake** · Posted On: 6/15/2011 11:07pm

Originally Posted by HenryT

But Diploma Mill Colleges, fake military persons and other frauds ARE still operating with (apparent) impunity;

No, they are not. They are getting busted and shut down at a much higher rate, in the "modern times," than you suggest.

You obviously know more about it than I do, but I find it hard to believe that someone can offer for sale, and can explicitly offer to alter, a document under somebody else's signature, and that's OK.

Did you not see that Sam said it is illegal under specific circumstances? If I get a replacement Diploma, from an accredited College, the Dean of my College is not actually signing my Diploma. In other words, reading Sam's explanation there is a specific instance where this is illegal because, they are explicitly sold as REPLACEMENTS.

Also, read Boby's post carefully.

**HenryT** · Posted On: 6/16/2011 4:53am

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Did you not see that Sam said it is illegal under specific circumstances? If I get a replacement Diploma, from an accredited College, the Dean of my College is not actually signing my Diploma. In other words, reading Sam's explanation there is a specific instance where this is illegal because, they are explicitly sold as REPLACEMENTS.

If you legitimately lose your diploma, you get it replaced by the awarding body, not by an internet salesman. It’s perfectly easy to do this (I’ve done it myself). Also, some of the certificates offered for sale on this site are not replacements, but simple fakes (e.g. a Goju certificate “signed” by a Shito Ryu teacher). I’m happy to tell you, BTW, that Yale now have their lawyers onto this.

It Is Fake: I have to say that I don’t understand your attitude on this thread. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you (it’s easy to misread the “tone” of the written word, after all), but your posts seem to me to convey the message that I’m being annoying or pernickety or making a fuss about nothing. Forgive me if this wasn’t your intention; but advice to “read Boby’s post carefully” is a little snide, isn’t it? I did. I’m quite a good reader, really. What I say in response to it, and in relation to this matter generally, is this: that what this guy is doing is unethical even if it’s not illegal – and isn’t it the point of Bullshido to expose unethical practices and make life uncomfortable for the practitioner? OK: maybe there’s no legal case against Roger. But there’s no legal case against many of the people who have had their asses burned by Bullshido. Forget the whole question of legality, then, and burn his ass anyway. What do you think about that? I’d be happy to have a slap at him if I felt that there was any support from other Bullshido members; but I’m beginning to think that nobody really has a problem with Roger, and that – in the context of Bullshido’s general attitude towards scams – surprises me somewhat more than somewhat.

Consider this. A thread that I contributed to last year involved a teacher in England who was making seemingly false/exaggerated claims about his lineage and training history.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99802

The thread seems to have petered out; eight months down the line the promised write-up hasn’t yet appeared. But for a while it was vigorously and minutely pursued by several contributors (including you), and the guy got a roasting. The thread ran to twelve pages and 112 posts. But that guy hadn’t done anything worse than Roger is doing, and nothing illegal; so what’s the difference? Why so keen to go after some scam artists, yet so unkeen to go after others?

If the legal aspect of this really is a dead horse, I’ll stop flogging it; but let’s find another horse. What do you say?

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 6/16/2011 6:48am

Hi Henry T, since you brought up the Yale and Harvard angle, I have a suggestion. Why don't you ask this mill to reproduce a diploma from one of these schools, then ship a copy to one of these school's legal departments with a note about their trademarks being potentially infringed?

**HenryT** · Posted On: 6/16/2011 7:22am

Originally Posted by Sam Browning

Hi Henry T, since you brought up the Yale and Harvard angle, I have a suggestion. Why don't you ask this mill to reproduce a diploma from one of these schools, then ship a copy to one of these school's legal departments with a note about their trademarks being potentially infringed?

It hurts to waste upwards of fifty bucks, but I've already done something along these lines and received a positive reply, to the effect that their lawyers are on to it. I won't stress this angle on this thread, because it has nothing to do with martial arts - but I should be surprised if they (Yale) didn't kick up a ruckus about it, and I guess they have the muscle to do so effectively. As I mentioned earlier, I've also been in communication with the JKA and the Goju Kai hombu, though they haven't responded. I'd be more than happy to get in touch with this guy myself and ask him some straight questions; but my current feeling (perhaps I'm misjudging the situation) is that no one feels all that strongly about it. Which, I say again, surprises me.