BJJ perspectives on 'Judo-esque' submissions

[Res Judicata]

I need to start a submission grappling club at Georgia Tech so I can get exposed to more non-bjj grapplers.

There's some good Judo in Atlanta. This place even has a Judo for BJJ players class. http://www.atlantajudomidtown.com/

[judoka_uk]

Usually if I am in the modified Kesa Gatame I will try to finish with the head and arm choke or I will do a body crush which involves hooking his right leg underneath the knee with my left arm. Once I got his leg I place my back against his chest/stomach and I will try to bring his leg to his head which causes a lot of pressure on his chest and they usually tap. To get to the side mount I just over hook his right arm with my left and then take my right arm and place underneath his left arm. I will take a pic of the crush if needed........I believe it is a pro wrestling move.....lol but it works most of the time.

I'm not sure that really gets to what I was trying to understand.

What I struggle with is controlling the wrist/ arm so that I can get it from A to B



And then getting it secured with the legs, like so

[Jim_Jude]

Yes, I was aware of that video, didn't know it was online.

Thanks for posting it.

I don't think it's available online, I just posted a small demo clip, sans any of the real instruction, from my copy.

[Team Python]

I'm not sure that really gets to what I was trying to understand.

What I struggle with is controlling the wrist/ arm so that I can get it from A to B



And then getting it secured with the legs, like so

Since he can not pull his elbow down to the ground because my right thigh is preventing from him doing so I then can slide my hand up to his wrist and push his arm down towards my leg and trap it. Once I trap the leg I place my right arm back underneath his left arm. Then I am able to finish with the three techniques I showed earlier.

I hardly ever use the modified Kesa Gatame unless I get a head and arm takedown and land with my arm around his neck. If I am already top of my opponent such in a cross body position then I will go into a side mount position which allows me better control and prevents him from escaping.

[jnp]

I'm not sure that really gets to what I was trying to understand.

What I struggle with is controlling the wrist/ arm so that I can get it from A to B

First, slide your grip up toward his wrist. Then push his arm directly toward your right foot (as pictured). His arm has very little strength in this direction. In a controlled motion, throw your left leg over his arm and rake it back into armbar position in a similarly controlled motion.

This is a bit of a quick and dirty move that sacrifices a bit of control to get the sub. It typically won't work on the more skilled players more than a few times.

Edit: Damnation, somehow I missed Team Python's post. A bit awkward since he says the same thing.

[judoka_uk]

Cheers Team Python and JNP.

Since he can not pull his elbow down to the ground because my right thigh is preventing from him doing so

This, is I think, the key difference I was missing. Normally when I've been trying to do this I'm holding with normal Kesa rather than Makura/ Modified Kesa with the arm gripping your own leg. Thus there's the space for uke to get his arm to the mat, whereas with this version there isn't.

I'll have a play in randori with this and see how I get on.

[BKR]

In a more general sense, I mean that in Judo a pin, a choke and armbar all score. So Judoka are at least as likely to enter into a pin versus go submission hunting. That created some wrong expectations on my part. I can be in a position were, in BJJ, some one would almost invariably go for my arm. But in Judo, they're more likely to take the pin. I defend the armlock and get pinned instead (probably because I'm defending the armlock...).

The video I posted above from Matsumura sensei is a good example, actually. BJJ guys in that starting position will go for the arm most of the time or maybe knee on belly.

The way I was taught, pins,chokes, armlocks all work together, the analogy used by my instructor was of a triangle. When attacking, you may go for a choke and end up with an armbar, go for pin end up with choke, etc., in a cycle that ends with a score/submission or stalling out/mate'. So no matter what uke does, he gets caught one way or the other.

Hence my remark about an entry being for one thing and leading to another. It's important to not be fixated on one result. Of course, it's good to be outstanding at arm bar entries like Jimmy Pedro, Neil Adams, et al,.

This of course is combined with basics of ne waza to create opportunities, move, etc.

Ben

[BKR]

That is because no BJJ guy is going to go belly down. Honestly, the more I think about it the pin really bothers me in Judo and Wrestling. I hate the idea of deliberately giving up your back.

Pinning deliberately gives up the back? Oh, you mean turtling or going flat to stall, I guess.

My opinion is and has been for a long time that going belly down for Judoka should be a last resort, shiai or otherwise. But it is used as a strategy in shiai so much it's gotten to be the norm.

Ben

[PointyShinyBurn]

My opinion is and has been for a long time that going belly down for Judoka should be a last resort

Even if de-emphasised, it'll still always be preferable to being pinned, whereas in BJJ it's preferable only to being submitted.

[Res Judicata]

Even if de-emphasised, it'll still always be preferable to being pinned, whereas in BJJ it's preferable only to being submitted.

Not really. Going flat is terrible, sure. But otherwise turtle isn't so bad (especially an under-sprawl posture) even in BJJ. It's much better than being under side control or mount - you can get back to guard, escape to your feet, etc.