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  1. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 12:19pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    What is supposed to happen is the end technique from the entry depends on how uke reacts to the initial attack.

    What usually happens is that the instructor does not know that and just knows it as either a pin or armbar entry.

    Ben
    In a more general sense, I mean that in Judo a pin, a choke and armbar all score. So Judoka are at least as likely to enter into a pin versus go submission hunting. That created some wrong expectations on my part. I can be in a position were, in BJJ, some one would almost invariably go for my arm. But in Judo, they're more likely to take the pin. I defend the armlock and get pinned instead (probably because I'm defending the armlock...).

    The video I posted above from Matsumura sensei is a good example, actually. BJJ guys in that starting position will go for the arm most of the time or maybe knee on belly.
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 12:51pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is because no BJJ guy is going to go belly down. Honestly, the more I think about it the pin really bothers me in Judo and Wrestling. I hate the idea of deliberately giving up your back.
  3. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 12:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The pin isn't what makes turtling a viable defence, I've no idea why you would think that.

    Edit: Or to rephrase, removing the pin wouldn't make turtling magically disappear.
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 6/07/2011 1:16pm at .
  4. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 1:19pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not turtling. The complete belly down thing that looks like the finish position of Waki-Gatame. It is seen in both Scholastic Wrestling and Judo. I've always found it absurd. I find it more absurd the longer I do BJJ and the more I hate giving my back.
  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 1:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Not turtling. The complete belly down thing that looks like the finish position of Waki-Gatame. It is seen in both Scholastic Wrestling and Judo. I've always found it absurd. I find it more absurd the longer I do BJJ and the more I hate giving my back.
    Even amongst Judoka going belly down is usually frowned upon. As it offers no more defensive capabilities than the turtle and reduces your ability to react and go on the offensive.
  6. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 1:48pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Thanks for that Team Python.

    What methods do you find best to get from here.



    To here

    Usually if I am in the modified Kesa Gatame I will try to finish with the head and arm choke or I will do a body crush which involves hooking his right leg underneath the knee with my left arm. Once I got his leg I place my back against his chest/stomach and I will try to bring his leg to his head which causes a lot of pressure on his chest and they usually tap. To get to the side mount I just over hook his right arm with my left and then take my right arm and place underneath his left arm. I will take a pic of the crush if needed........I believe it is a pro wrestling move.....lol but it works most of the time.
  7. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 1:59pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Not turtling. The complete belly down thing that looks like the finish position of Waki-Gatame. It is seen in both Scholastic Wrestling and Judo. I've always found it absurd. I find it more absurd the longer I do BJJ and the more I hate giving my back.
    Doesn't matter. My point is, removing the pin wouldn't make it go away.

    You need to disincentivise (is that even a word?) going to your belly, because it's such a good stalling position, and right now there's no disadvantage to it at all.

    Edit: because I don't want to derail this thread any further, as there's good things going on here now, I'll just add: I agree with you 100% that going to your belly is a bad thing, and that the shitty ruleset is responsible for the atrophy of Judo's newaza skills... I just don't think "pinning" is the droid you're looking for.
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 6/07/2011 2:11pm at .
  8. cufaol is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 2:00pm


     Style: Boxing/Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Thanks for that Team Python.

    What methods do you find best to get from here.



    To here

    I was wondering about that too. A lot can go wrong as soon as the uke notices that you are going for his arm. I have failed this transition a lot, because i'm a noob obviously. But what has worked for me a number of times is this: transition to kami shiho gatame, while you start moving your left shoulder towards uke, keep control of the arm. Now move your grip on the arm upwards, from the elbow to the wrist. Once you have turned almost completely, you should have enough pressure/weight to move the arm down between your legs without too much resistance. The problem is keeping control during the transition. You can then turn back into the position on the last pic. It does work, but not as often as I would like. Remember, I have limited experience. You can, of course, just go for the kami-shiho/ north-south. That seems like the sensible thing to do.
  9. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 2:08pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Doesn't matter. My point is, removing the pin wouldn't make it go away.

    You need to disincentivise (is that even a word?) going to your belly, because it's such a good stalling position, and right now there's no disadvantage to it at all.
    Longer time in ne waza is the traditional solution.
  10. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 3:06pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I need to start a submission grappling club at Georgia Tech so I can get exposed to more non-bjj grapplers.
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