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  1. #11
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    DKJr's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    These submissions in my experience are too low percentage because the chance of the opponent to escape on the bottom is higher in kesa than in say a kuzure-kesa-gatame. The underhook is needed to control your opponents body more effectively yet you sacrifice offensive capabilities to submit your opponent using these submissions.

    For me at least it's a matter of ROI, am I getting the most here? Or sacrificing too much for very little return. Same reason I don't do flying triangles.

  2. #12
    WhiteShark's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah thats what I mean about Waki-Gatame. I gotta have someone that knows how to do it try on me. It seems like you can roll out of it in the early stages.

    One of the videos posted was basically a sit-out to Waki-Gatame. Normally you try for a back take after a sit-out so in that case you are clearly sacrificing 4 points for what appears to be a low percentage sub.

  3. #13
    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer. Join us... or die

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Yeah thats what I mean about Waki-Gatame. I gotta have someone that knows how to do it try on me. It seems like you can roll out of it in the early stages.
    If you're caught in it, you can't roll anywhere, the only direction you can go in is down.

  4. #14

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rolling out can be bad. You can ude garami yourself if you try. I speak from experience.

    Look at the competition examples at the end of this video:


  5. #15
    judoka_uk's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think any of the BJJ guys are questioning the fact that once the arm is fully out and under control you either tap or it goes snap.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Yeah thats what I mean about Waki-Gatame. I gotta have someone that knows how to do it try on me. It seems like you can roll out of it in the early stages.
    You can roll out of it as they're setting it up, but the same goes for most other armlocks as well. However, because of the lack of general control of uke's body in the preparatory moves for Waki gatame it is easier to escape than other arm locks.

  6. #16
    WhiteShark's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    You can roll out of it as they're setting it up, but the same goes for most other armlocks as well. However, because of the lack of general control of uke's body in the preparatory moves for Waki gatame it is easier to escape than other arm locks.
    Thanks for not assuming I'm an idiot. Thats what I was getting at. BJJ is all position before submission. Waki-Gatame looks like you don't have enough body control for it to be blessed by the Zhoo-Zhitsu gods.

  7. #17
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have to move towards uke head to keep control. Most people just try to sit down in place, so uke can roll out. Also, tori has to be prepared for the escape move and transition to a pin or another submission. I think Waki Gatame is kind of a holdover from older styles of ju jutsu.

    Waki Gatame is pretty unusual in Judo as well, don't see it much at all.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

  8. #18
    WhiteShark's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is this Waki-Gatame?

  9. #19
    judoka_uk's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Thanks for not assuming I'm an idiot. Thats what I was getting at. BJJ is all position before submission. Waki-Gatame looks like you don't have enough body control for it to be blessed by the Zhoo-Zhitsu gods.
    Waki gatame is a bit of a hangover from the old Jujutsu days where it was done standing up, as you can see from posted videos most competition examples are from the standing phase.

    I think people have tried to integrate ways to put it into groundwork, but most of them are based around behaviour that only makes sense within the Judo ruleset. I.e when uke is in Kesa gatame they roll into tori trying to belly out and that's when tori catches the arm and puts on Waki gatame.

    I'm trying to upload a video of it being put on by Hwang of Korea as part of a turnover sequence, but my video editor is being gay.

  10. #20
    WhiteShark's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is it from under turtle? That is the move in the above video that I'm calling a sit out.

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