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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 8:24am

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     Style: Judo

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    BJJ perspectives on 'Judo-esque' submissions

    90% of submission techniques are seen as equally often in BJJ as they are in Judo.

    However, there are some that either through rule set or styles of fighting tend to appear more often in one style than the other Omoplata/Ude garami with the legs being more common in BJJ than Judo, Waki gatame/Armpit armbar(?) being more common in Judo than BJJ.

    I thought it would be interesting to get some BJJ perspectives on the submissions that are usually more common in Judo.

    These perspectives include the likes of:
    Set ups
    Tweaks
    Control
    Combinations

    The techniques I'd like to get perspectives on are:

    Ude garami with the legs/ Keylock with the legs



    Hiza gatame/ Knee armlock/Straight armlock



    Waki gatame/Armpit armbar (?)



    Sode guruma jime/ Ezekiel choke



    Where possible please post simultaneous translations of technique names as this is a cross-style discussion thread.

    Please use as many visual resources as you can to aid communication.
  2. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 8:50am

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    http://www.jiujitsutechnique.com/jiu...do-santos.html

    When I was training BJJ, I was looking for a few tricks to use that most of my training partners didn't see on a regular basis. I picked up a copy of Judo Unleashed by Neil Ohlenkamp.

    I don't remember the name of the technique. Interestingly, the first video I found of the technique was a demo by a BJJ guy, so that's what I've linked to here.

    Anyway, this is not something that I'd been trained to do in BJJ and I'd never seen anyone else use it in practice or competition. So I tried it out and had great success. I was able to catch guys with it who were way better than me because they weren't accustomed to seeing it.

    Good fun.

    Edit: Looks like this is a variation of one of the techniques you posted.
    Last edited by Devil; 6/06/2011 8:54am at .
  3. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 8:53am

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     Style: BJJ

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    You question is kind of broad, might want to narrow it down a bit if you want productive discussion.

    The Ezekiel is pretty common in BJJ, most commonly people use it from top mount or when passing half guard to make uke stop blocking your hips/knees with his arms.
  4. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 9:01am

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    From my experience doing a little bit of Judo and a lot of BJJ it is mostly because of No-Gi. Kesa in particular is much much harder in No-Gi. Also, since pinning is meaningless the chance of having your back taken is too high to use Kesa as a subbing position.

    The other area I see difference is subs from inside the guard. That is the only real difference in Ezekiel. BJJ guys use Ezekiels but not typically form inside guard. It is usually done from mount or when you have someone in your guard.

    That Waki-gatame position seems impossible to get if the person is willing to butt flop and or heedless of lying on their back. What I mean is it only seem applicable if you start from a resistive throw or the person insists on lying on their stomach. However, it isn;t a move I use a lot so I could be way off.
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 9:04am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    I really think it all comes down to pins.
  6. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 9:29am

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    That Waki-gatame position seems impossible to get if the person is willing to butt flop and or heedless of lying on their back. What I mean is it only seem applicable if you start from a resistive throw or the person insists on lying on their stomach. However, it isn;t a move I use a lot so I could be way off.
    I use it sometimes when people try to turtle out from my side control or stiff-arm my pass. For BJJ purposes you could usually be trying to circle to the back instead, that tends to be safer and higher percentage.
  7. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 10:38am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Waki gatame can be used from underneath turtle, either in a sprawl position or when uke is behind you:

    From sprawl (although he's actually doing ude garami here ...)


    From underneath turtle, although it's usually done with one arm on the leg and the other on the arm. BJJ guys usually go to the back, instead.


    You can also hit waki gatame if uke turns into you from kesa gatame or frames with the far arm. BJJ guys won't usually try that (at about :45)



    It's most useful as standing to ground transition technique, particularly against stiff arms.



    Regular kesa gatame turns into kata gatame (arm triangle) pretty easily, something a lot of people seem to forget.



    I also agree that it's pinning that makes for much of the differences in the approaches of Judo and BJJ. The lack of back points in Judo, standups, and the pickup-matte rule also play a large part.

    The triangles are another technique set with significant differences between the art. The front triangle (from guard) is very common in BJJ, but uncommon in Judo. The side triangle and even rear triangles are more common in Judo but virtually absent in BJJ.
    Last edited by Res Judicata; 6/06/2011 10:47am at .
  8. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 12:27pm

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    Yeah I forgot about no back points in Judo. Pinning and back points may be all you need to explain 99% of the differences. Waki-Gatame seems retarded when you can get 4 points for back mount.
  9. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 1:00pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Yeah I forgot about no back points in Judo. Pinning and back points may be all you need to explain 99% of the differences. Waki-Gatame seems retarded when you can get 4 points for back mount.
    As always, a static picture never tells the whole story.

    In all likelihood the picture doesn't show the culmination of an attack on a turtling opponent. Wakigatame usually starts from standing and is used to take uke to the floor:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he2GttCwiYE#t=6m17s

    The position of uke in this instance is entirely involuntary, you either lay on your face or take your arm home in a carrier bag...
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 6/06/2011 1:06pm at .
  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 1:10pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    You question is kind of broad, might want to narrow it down a bit if you want productive discussion.

    The Ezekiel is pretty common in BJJ, most commonly people use it from top mount or when passing half guard to make uke stop blocking your hips/knees with his arms.
    True the question is fairly broad, but I wanted to leave people to chip in various ideas rather than rigidly demand stuff from them.

    I was hoping for a mixture of replies like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Lazy BJJ people call the move y'all are discussing the leglock americana.

    I pin their wrist/lower arm with the back of my hand so my palm is facing up. Then I grab my ankle with my fingers and pull my lower leg over their arm instead of trying to pull their arm underneath it with a lousy wrist grip. I've done it no-gi this way as well.
    Along with the stuff that's already going on.
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