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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 8:54am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Yeh, absolutely. I just think there are better vehicles for teaching the same information/ concepts in a more concise and clearer manner in ways people can more readily relate to randori/ shiai.

    I guess my feelings towards kata are similar to your feelings towards static uchikomi.
    Not an exact analogy but useful. Kata is another training tool, it's been totally formalized (in Judo) which has taken a lot of the use out of it.

    At one point, I had learned and memorized the entire Kawaishi katame waza kata, as my coach at the time (Jacque Legrand) had learned it in France. It was set piece situations and compliant, BUT, I learned a lot of submissions I'd never seen or done before in different positions, including standing armlocks and chokes. I also remembered it all for a very long time. It was not a formal kata, but a way to learn and memorize stuff.

    There were even action reaction sequences for all the osaekomi positions, on how to shift from the pin to a submission depending on uke escape attempts.

    I don't mind static uchikomi, I just teach backwards from moving to static, and think they are a higher level type of drill, because if you don't know what you are doing it's easy to do repitions of bad habits.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 9:11am

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Hiza Gatame, I believe. I first learned it as Ude Gatame with the legs, though.

    Ben
    Hiza gatame, according to the Kodokan

    45 seconds in approx.


    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Not an exact analogy but useful. Kata is another training tool, it's been totally formalized (in Judo) which has taken a lot of the use out of it.

    At one point, I had learned and memorized the entire Kawaishi katame waza kata, as my coach at the time (Jacque Legrand) had learned it in France. It was set piece situations and compliant, BUT, I learned a lot of submissions I'd never seen or done before in different positions, including standing armlocks and chokes. I also remembered it all for a very long time. It was not a formal kata, but a way to learn and memorize stuff.

    There were even action reaction sequences for all the osaekomi positions, on how to shift from the pin to a submission depending on uke escape attempts.

    I don't mind static uchikomi, I just teach backwards from moving to static, and think they are a higher level type of drill, because if you don't know what you are doing it's easy to do repitions of bad habits.

    Ben
    Something a bit like this?



    Although the video is a more technically sound version of that old 'round the world' osaekomi drill.

    Yeh I think we're on the same page, to be able to get the most out of kata, in my view, you need to understand how action-reaction works and what it is and understand stuff like spacing, positioning, and obviously be able to perform all the technqiues competently independetly.

    Then you can get something out of kata, bit like you want to work up to static uchikomi.
  3. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 9:22am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do the Americana version of that Kesa submission all the time. People hate it.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 9:43am

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    I do the Americana version of that Kesa submission all the time. People hate it.
    Always found it difficult to get that one on anyone except complete noobs. I use this version from time to time.



    Its tough to get though.
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 9:52am

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lv1Sierpinski View Post
    Any belt, any style, some guys are jerks. They can be clueless, harmless jerks that get threads made about them on the internet;
    Taekwondo black belts.
  6. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 9:56am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Hiza gatame, according to the Kodokan

    45 seconds in approx.



    Something a bit like this?



    Although the video is a more technically sound version of that old 'round the world' osaekomi drill.

    Yeh I think we're on the same page, to be able to get the most out of kata, in my view, you need to understand how action-reaction works and what it is and understand stuff like spacing, positioning, and obviously be able to perform all the technqiues competently independetly.

    Then you can get something out of kata, bit like you want to work up to static uchikomi.
    What Jacque taught did have a version of "around the clock" in it, but that was not it. I forgot to mention that part of the whole set. But it actually went all the way around and had set action reaction sequence involved.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 9:58am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    I do the Americana version of that Kesa submission all the time. People hate it.
    When I competed more, I subbed a lot of guys with the Hiza Gatame version, don't remember using the Ude Garami/Americana version though. It DID piss quite a few guys off, for some reason. I guess they weren't expecting it and I did put it on pretty hard and fast, LOL.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 1:19pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess my caveats are I haven't done it to anyone above blue belt and I can't do it in No-Gi. I'll have to try to tap some purples with it.
  9. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 1:41pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lazy BJJ people call the move y'all are discussing the leglock americana.

    I pin their wrist/lower arm with the back of my hand so my palm is facing up. Then I grab my ankle with my fingers and pull my lower leg over their arm instead of trying to pull their arm underneath it with a lousy wrist grip. I've done it no-gi this way as well.
  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2011 1:57pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    I pin their wrist/lower arm with the back of my hand so my palm is facing up. Then I grab my ankle with my fingers and pull my lower leg over their arm instead of trying to pull their arm underneath it with a lousy wrist grip. I've done it no-gi this way as well.
    I was actually going to start a thread on BJJ perspectives on these kind of 'Judo-esque' submissions precisley to get these kind of tips.

    Cheers.
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