225242 Bullies, 4034 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 19
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. CheeksWWAC is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    197

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 9:04am


     Style: BJJ and Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dojime or Guard- Wheres the line?

    So when I started training Judo I would often get thrown and land in guard. Its muscle memory for me and a habit I can't seem to break, nor do I really want to. My Sensei says its illegal to use guard at the point the ankles cross, but USJF competition rules say its "ankles crossed and legs extended" which I take to mean it isn't considered Dojime until you extend the legs in an attempt to submit.

    I searched the threads and saw some discussion about it, but what I would like to hear about is experiences from other Judokas that have competed and have either used closed guard or had it used on them and the results that they have experienced. Do judges normally call it Dojime as soon as the ankles cross, or can you get away with it generally, and also what are the positive and negative effects of allowing or banning the closed guard from Judo?
  2. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,500

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 9:22am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CheeksWWAC View Post
    So when I started training Judo I would often get thrown and land in guard. Its muscle memory for me and a habit I can't seem to break, nor do I really want to. My Sensei says its illegal to use guard at the point the ankles cross, but USJF competition rules say its "ankles crossed and legs extended" which I take to mean it isn't considered Dojime until you extend the legs in an attempt to submit.

    I searched the threads and saw some discussion about it, but what I would like to hear about is experiences from other Judokas that have competed and have either used closed guard or had it used on them and the results that they have experienced. Do judges normally call it Dojime as soon as the ankles cross, or can you get away with it generally, and also what are the positive and negative effects of allowing or banning the closed guard from Judo?
    You can cross your ankles or knees, that does not matter. If your ankles are crossed and you extend your legs, that will at the least get a standup. Basically, Dojime is "trunk strangle" and involves purposely squeezing as a submission attempt.

    People debate over whether Dojime is a useful submission or not, but in Judo at least it's illegal and has been since I think around 1920.

    Closed guard is perfectly legal in Judo competition, ankles crossed or not. In judo newaza, you have to be showing progress for the action to continue (in shiai-randori is different matter). So you do not see matches where one guy hangs out in the other's guard for a while.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,619

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 9:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ben have you ever seen someone get given shido for dojime in a comp, because I haven't?

    I've used closed guard, had people use closed guard on me it happens all the time in Judo matches.

    As Ben said crossing the ankles doesn't matter, I don't know where that 'rule' has come from.

    Judo is a highly regulated and organised sport, that has some downsides, but one of the positives is that the full rules of Judo are avaliable to anyone in a variety of langauges.

    http://www.intjudo.eu/IJF_Referee_Ru...nglish_Version

    You want section 27- Prohibited acts and penalties, subsection a 21:

    To apply leg scissors to the opponent's trunk (Dojime), neck or head. (Scissor with crossed feet, while stretching out the legs).
    So the key indicator referees are looking for is that stretching out of the legs the crossed ankles isn't what they are looking for.
  4. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,500

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 9:58am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Ben have you ever seen someone get given shido for dojime in a comp, because I haven't?

    I've used closed guard, had people use closed guard on me it happens all the time in Judo matches.

    As Ben said crossing the ankles doesn't matter, I don't know where that 'rule' has come from.

    Judo is a highly regulated and organised sport, that has some downsides, but one of the positives is that the full rules of Judo are avaliable to anyone in a variety of langauges.

    http://www.intjudo.eu/IJF_Referee_Ru...nglish_Version

    You want section 27- Prohibited acts and penalties, subsection a 21:



    So the key indicator referees are looking for is that stretching out of the legs the crossed ankles isn't what they are looking for.
    LOL, well, I've done it twice as a referee, both times it was very obvious. I did not HSM either one, as they were just ignorant of the rules. Nobody got hurt, so no problems.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,619

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 10:06am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    LOL, well, I've done it twice as a referee, both times it was very obvious. I did not HSM either one, as they were just ignorant of the rules. Nobody got hurt, so no problems.

    Ben
    Can you actually give a direct HSM? I thought it was a direct HSM, but the rules say its only a shido.
  6. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,500

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 10:11am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Can you actually give a direct HSM? I thought it was a direct HSM, but the rules say its only a shido.
    You forget, my friend, that I started refereeing in 1982. I have not seen any dojime since the more recent rule changes. It might have been keikoku and not HSM back then.

    When I started Judo, shido for anything was a rare call to see. Whole matches would go on for the full time limit with no negative Judo penalties given that today would be over in the first 3 minutes due to accumulated penalties.

    Ben
    Last edited by BKR; 6/01/2011 10:11am at . Reason: clarification
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. CheeksWWAC is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    197

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 10:52pm


     Style: BJJ and Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey thanks a lot, My Judo club was formally the all navy Judo team but they lost funding and couldnt maintain their team. The classes are small and the sensei is 6th Dan, but I know he actively HATES bjj, so he definately tries to discount a lot of the techniques Ive learned prior to training Judo, closed guard being one of them. Probably not the best club in my area, but I only wanted to supplement my BJJ and since its on base I can train during working hours.
  8. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,619

    Posted On:
    6/02/2011 5:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Closed guard is a Judo technique.
  9. CheeksWWAC is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    197

    Posted On:
    6/02/2011 5:49am


     Style: BJJ and Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yea I know brother, it just doesn't seem to be as big of a part in the over all game as it is in Jits. I know my history man, no discredit upon Judo intended, it's definitely the ****. Jits is just my first love and honestly I really suck at randori but pretty good at rolling so I obviously favor BJJ.
  10. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,500

    Posted On:
    6/02/2011 12:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CheeksWWAC View Post
    Hey thanks a lot, My Judo club was formally the all navy Judo team but they lost funding and couldnt maintain their team. The classes are small and the sensei is 6th Dan, but I know he actively HATES bjj, so he definately tries to discount a lot of the techniques Ive learned prior to training Judo, closed guard being one of them. Probably not the best club in my area, but I only wanted to supplement my BJJ and since its on base I can train during working hours.
    Any judoka that hates BJJ (as an art/sport is) deluded. I'd just focus on the standup when you are there, which it sounds like is what you are looking for anyway.

    Hating BJJ is so 1990's.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.