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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 8:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dealing with Unorthodox Gripping

    ATTENTION!


    This has been placed in the advanced grappling forum for a reason.


    If you don’t understand the fundamentals of gripping and concepts behind it then you need to go and:



    READ THIS THREAD


    BUY THIS BOOK


    GET HOLD OF THIS DVD


    A fundamental knowledge of gripping and associated terminology is assumed in this article and you won’t fully understand the material contained within unless you take the time to go and acquire that understanding and knowledge.


    So caveat emptor aside, to business.



    Russian Arm





    Prevention being better than cure its best to attempt to stop the Russian arm coming over the top from ‘zero’.


    The pre-cursor to the Russian arm is the lapel grip which is used to draw a person in so that the arm can be thrown.





    This is stage one and so the point before your opponents attempt to get this grip is the ‘zero’. As such your first line of defence should be applying standard defensive tactics to prevent your opponent getting a grip on your collar. If you don’t know what these are you are not at a level to get much out of this article and best stop reading here...


    If you fail to stop the Russian arm being thrown at the ‘zero’ and allow stage one to be established it is vital that you don’t allow the arm to be thrown successfully.



    One method of preventing the arm coming over the top is to catch it as it is thrown.





    Block hard with your hand as you circle around your opponent towards the arm they’re attempting to throw over.





    From here one option is to grip uke firmly around the waist and hook or block their shin to take them into newaza.





    This can be aided by the judicial application of a firm pelvic thrust.





    Another option against the Russian arm





    Is to roll your shoulder over, downwards and inwards to release the shoulder





    This creates space and frees the shoulder, which the Russian arm seeks to control.


    Continue to create space by stepping and circling around uke whilst gripping the armpit to assist in creating space





    Keep creating space and circling until you can enter into newaza as described above or continue until you disengage and return to the ‘zero’.


    Round the Back Grip





    As with the Russian arm it is best to stop the round the back grip at the ‘zero’ either through posting their tsurite side shoulder or through preventing the set up grip.


    A common method of getting to the round the back grip is to cross grip with the non-thrown hand





    Either strip this grip off or use the hand on lapel defence.
    If the cross grip is achieved and or the arm is thrown over successfully then use a shoulder roll to release the grip.





    And then pulse and drive uke away from you





    From another angle





    Then circle away from the arm








    Here Jeon shows the shoulder roll defence against the round the back grip as part of a successful gripping sequence leading to a throw.





    Triceps Grip

    One of the many forms of unorthodox gripping, the triceps grip can be very limiting to your Judo and puts your opponent in a position to launch a variety of orthodox and unorthodox attacks.





    To break the triceps grip, roll your elbow upwards and outwards over their arm.








    Then flip your forearm over theirs and grip their sleeve





    Then bring in your tsurite hand and secure your control of their sleeve





    Another problem with the tricep grip is when you get put in a situation where they have two hands on your sleeve.
    As you reach for your opponents collar as in the post gripping sequence they cross grip low down on your sleeve




    Then grip your triceps with their other hand, pulling you in, crushing your posture and preventing you from turning in for your techniques.




    This grip breaks your posture, forcing you to lean over and preventing you from being able to use your hikite hand to perform techniques.


    This is a dangerous place to be as you can’t attack you don’t have good posture and so a vulnerable to attacks and they are in a strong position to attack you either with innovative kata guruma applications like the Laats or simply come over the top and get a dominant grip




    In order to prevent this you must take immediate defensive action.
    Using your tsurite hand get a firm grip on their lapel in order to establish control and be able to defend





    And use your head against their shoulder to brace and prevent them from attacking





    This forces them to act as you now have throwing options, can defend strongly and they will be penalised for same sided gripping if they don’t attack or change grip. So your opponent will come and grip your tsurite sleeve.





    Anticipating this action as uke releases his grip on your hikite sleeve in order to grip your tsurite sleeve step back and draw back your arm creating space.





    You aren’t out of the woods yet though as uke still has a grip on your triceps





    And can easily bring their hand back across and re-start the sequence





    To break the triceps grip, roll your elbow upwards and outwards over their arm.








    Then flip your forearm over theirs and grip their sleeve





    Then bring in your tsurite hand and secure your control of their sleeve





    Its important to not attempt to counter a triceps grip by throwing the Russian arm over the top. As not only is this one of the few situations under which Te guruma is still legal, but also those who adopt the triceps grip are invariably pick up specialists and so will be waiting for the air to come over the top...





    Korean Grip





    Encountering the Korean grip is rare, hence why I have left it until the end. However, it is a very powerful grip and very difficult to deal with if you don’t know what you’re doing.



    The Korean grip takes a high grip on one lapel and then an even deeper grip on your other lapel pulling your head down, breaking your posture and giving the Korean gripper phenomenal control over your upper body





    As always prevention over cure. Stop the technique at the ‘zero’.
    If you fail, then establish a grip on uke’s back





    Rotate your hand to establish tension in the gi material and a strong grip from which to create space








    Drive off your strong back grip and roll your shoulder over. This needs to a very explosive and powerful movement.





    From the other angle





    Immediately start to circle away keeping pressure and creating space





    Get the inside grip and then keep shoulder rolling and moving until you have created enough space to either disengage or attack.
  2. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 11:27am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    LOL, whoosh!

    Nice work, and shows why worrying about his kind of stuff unless you are doing Judo 5+ days a week and don't already have very strong basics is a confusing waste of time.

    Just drilling the simplest pattern to get it down well will take weeks of dedicated work. All together, it's a long term project.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 5:56pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    LOL, whoosh!

    Nice work, and shows why worrying about his kind of stuff unless you are doing Judo 5+ days a week and don't already have very strong basics is a confusing waste of time.

    Just drilling the simplest pattern to get it down well will take weeks of dedicated work. All together, it's a long term project.

    Ben
    When I was gathering the visual aids/ researching for this I came across a comment by Pedro on his gripping dvd, where he says 'even my elite guys don't really get this stuff'.

    It made me starting really thinking about my gripping and the gripping of my guys/gals. Normally I just do the standard lapel feed to get the collar and then grip the sleeve and let them have equal opportunity.

    After I started paying attention I noticed that despite loads of lessons on gripping 99% didn't have a clue and so as soon as I started stepping things up; doing the lapel shrug, posting the tsurite shoulder, blocking my lapel with my hand etc... they were all at sea.

    I had a long phone chat with my coach about it earlier and so next academic year he's going to come down hard on the gripping for the competitively minded guys.
  4. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 12:42pm

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     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Learn unorthadox grips? I thought I could just lobby the federations to have them banned
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 1:55pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    When I was gathering the visual aids/ researching for this I came across a comment by Pedro on his gripping dvd, where he says 'even my elite guys don't really get this stuff'.

    It made me starting really thinking about my gripping and the gripping of my guys/gals. Normally I just do the standard lapel feed to get the collar and then grip the sleeve and let them have equal opportunity.

    After I started paying attention I noticed that despite loads of lessons on gripping 99% didn't have a clue and so as soon as I started stepping things up; doing the lapel shrug, posting the tsurite shoulder, blocking my lapel with my hand etc... they were all at sea.

    I had a long phone chat with my coach about it earlier and so next academic year he's going to come down hard on the gripping for the competitively minded guys.
    There are different stages to learning gripping just like anything else in Judo. It's easy to overload people who are just trying to learn how to move reasonably well and do simple throws, let alone add more complex gripping sequences to the mix. So it's no wonder they were at a loss when you "stepped it up". They don't have your experience or repetition with higher level judoka.

    I had the same experience with my students, and they are probably much longer term with me than your college kids. The ability to move and throw has to increase to be able to integrate the move/grip/move/cut/regrip and mix in attacks at the same time.

    Using ashi waza as part of a grip/attack sequence is a critical skill. But if you don't have the ashi waza down pretty well, then it won't work very well.

    Prepare to be frustrated.

    Also, cross gripping the lapel then trying to catch the sleeve is backwards for aiyotsu, but the right order for kenka yotsu. I started off my kids with the cross lapel to sleeve thing, but had to untrain them to catch sleeve first for ai yotsu. Of course, you can go for the near sleeve in kenka yotsu to catch the lapel and get inside grip as well.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 1:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    Learn unorthadox grips? I thought I could just lobby the federations to have them banned
    Right, I'm sure the IJF is all ears to escrimists and BJJist.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 2:28pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    As usual great work judoka_UK....I will add this to my Judo files. I know that Judo has rules regarding grips. In BJJ tournaments this has not happened yet. For instance I like to grab the front of the belt to set up certain takedowns. I was told that in Judo this was not allowed for more than a few seconds. I was also told that you have to remain in an upward stance during competition and not in a low stance or bent at the waist. Not sure if this is true so can anyone enlighten me on this.
  8. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 2:39pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    As usual great work judoka_UK....I will add this to my Judo files. I know that Judo has rules regarding grips. In BJJ tournaments this has not happened yet. For instance I like to grab the front of the belt to set up certain takedowns. I was told that in Judo this was not allowed for more than a few seconds. I was also told that you have to remain in an upward stance during competition and not in a low stance or bent at the waist. Not sure if this is true so can anyone enlighten me on this.
    You can grab and hold the belt for 5 seconds then you have to make an attack or receive a minor penalty.

    Upright stance is traditional to judo.

    You can bend over or use a wrestlers stance, but you will have to make an attack from there in a few (5) seconds or receive a penalty. Bend over and stiff arm and it will be a penalty right away.

    If you plan to go to a Judo tournament, I suggest you go take some Judo lessons first and get familiar with the rules etc, especially ukemi (falling). Otherwise you will be in for a frustrating experience.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 3:11pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    You can grab and hold the belt for 5 seconds then you have to make an attack or receive a minor penalty.

    Upright stance is traditional to judo.

    You can bend over or use a wrestlers stance, but you will have to make an attack from there in a few (5) seconds or receive a penalty. Bend over and stiff arm and it will be a penalty right away.

    If you plan to go to a Judo tournament, I suggest you go take some Judo lessons first and get familiar with the rules etc, especially ukemi (falling). Otherwise you will be in for a frustrating experience.

    Ben

    I don't think I will ever compete in Judo tournament but I was doing private lessons with a Judoka to better my throws for a BJJ tournament. That's until the gas prices went up and ruined those trips.

    I am currently working on having a Judo black belt teach several days a week at my academy so my students and I can be well rounded and do better in BJJ competition.
  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 3:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Great, in that case unorthodox grips are not a problem. Dealing with bent over posture and stiff arms might be though.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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