When I was training BJJ, I was looking for a few tricks to use that most of my training partners didn't see on a regular basis. I picked up a copy of Judo Unleashed by Neil Ohlenkamp.
I don't remember the name of the technique. Interestingly, the first video I found of the technique was a demo by a BJJ guy, so that's what I've linked to here.
Anyway, this is not something that I'd been trained to do in BJJ and I'd never seen anyone else use it in practice or competition. So I tried it out and had great success. I was able to catch guys with it who were way better than me because they weren't accustomed to seeing it.
Edit: Looks like this is a variation of one of the techniques you posted.
Last edited by Devil; 6/06/2011 8:54am at .
You question is kind of broad, might want to narrow it down a bit if you want productive discussion.
The Ezekiel is pretty common in BJJ, most commonly people use it from top mount or when passing half guard to make uke stop blocking your hips/knees with his arms.
From my experience doing a little bit of Judo and a lot of BJJ it is mostly because of No-Gi. Kesa in particular is much much harder in No-Gi. Also, since pinning is meaningless the chance of having your back taken is too high to use Kesa as a subbing position.
The other area I see difference is subs from inside the guard. That is the only real difference in Ezekiel. BJJ guys use Ezekiels but not typically form inside guard. It is usually done from mount or when you have someone in your guard.
That Waki-gatame position seems impossible to get if the person is willing to butt flop and or heedless of lying on their back. What I mean is it only seem applicable if you start from a resistive throw or the person insists on lying on their stomach. However, it isn;t a move I use a lot so I could be way off.
I really think it all comes down to pins.
I use it sometimes when people try to turtle out from my side control or stiff-arm my pass. For BJJ purposes you could usually be trying to circle to the back instead, that tends to be safer and higher percentage.
Originally Posted by WhiteShark
Waki gatame can be used from underneath turtle, either in a sprawl position or when uke is behind you:
From sprawl (although he's actually doing ude garami here ...)
From underneath turtle, although it's usually done with one arm on the leg and the other on the arm. BJJ guys usually go to the back, instead.
You can also hit waki gatame if uke turns into you from kesa gatame or frames with the far arm. BJJ guys won't usually try that (at about :45)
It's most useful as standing to ground transition technique, particularly against stiff arms.
Regular kesa gatame turns into kata gatame (arm triangle) pretty easily, something a lot of people seem to forget.
I also agree that it's pinning that makes for much of the differences in the approaches of Judo and BJJ. The lack of back points in Judo, standups, and the pickup-matte rule also play a large part.
The triangles are another technique set with significant differences between the art. The front triangle (from guard) is very common in BJJ, but uncommon in Judo. The side triangle and even rear triangles are more common in Judo but virtually absent in BJJ.
Last edited by Res Judicata; 6/06/2011 10:47am at .
Yeah I forgot about no back points in Judo. Pinning and back points may be all you need to explain 99% of the differences. Waki-Gatame seems retarded when you can get 4 points for back mount.
As always, a static picture never tells the whole story.
Originally Posted by WhiteShark
In all likelihood the picture doesn't show the culmination of an attack on a turtling opponent. Wakigatame usually starts from standing and is used to take uke to the floor:
The position of uke in this instance is entirely involuntary, you either lay on your face or take your arm home in a carrier bag...
Last edited by Lu Tze; 6/06/2011 1:06pm at .
True the question is fairly broad, but I wanted to leave people to chip in various ideas rather than rigidly demand stuff from them.
Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
I was hoping for a mixture of replies like this:
Along with the stuff that's already going on.
Originally Posted by jnp
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