228070 Bullies, 4785 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 18
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Mordschlag is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    193

    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 7:25pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Chausson Resources

    Hey all,

    Got some questions for the savateurs\bartitsuka out there. I've been trying to find some historical savate manuals in English to round out my single-stick game without much luck. I'm specifically looking for these manuals because they tend to include the Chausson kicks and defenses, such as the classic:



    I'm assuming these Chausson kicks aren't flying drop kicks, so I'm not sure in what situations you would use them. Response to a grabbed foot? Response to a sweep? Rocking boat? All of the above? Unfortunately I can't really find much information about how to execute these kicks, hence my thread here.

    Does anyone know some historical savate manuals that have been translated into English, specifically those that discuss those Chausson kicks? Are they even worth practicing or are they just interesting looking kicks without any real application?

    Thanks
  2. Mordschlag is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    193

    Posted On:
    5/31/2011 2:13am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Plenty of views but no answers yet, alas! Interestingly I was browsing the interwebs for videos about la canne combat and ended up finding two historical videos of this Chausson kick being used.

    http://youtu.be/QJme1iy6qOc
    A "Lady Kicker" doing this kick at 1:20 and 1:30

    http://youtu.be/NtzO8P9eZ_s
    Post-WWII video clip of this kick at 4:22

    It seems that this method of kicking fell out of usage sometime after sport savate was formed. It would be good to know if this was because grabbing your opponent's foot is illegal in sport savate or if the kick was just seen as archaic (or both).
  3. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar

    fist first Philosopher

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sanctuary of Pallas Athena (Belgium)
    Posts
    2,658

    Posted On:
    5/31/2011 4:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know if there are translated manuals outthere.

    Small synopsis:
    Savate kicking has it's origens with the sailors, since a boat's surface is unstable because of the rocking and stacked full of objects, the hands were used to grab hold whilest kicking. This was beneficiary to hitting because the sailorshoes were heavy and could do more damage and it minimized the risk on a broken hand. A broken hand meant that they couldn't work and thus wouldn't get paid (also the reason why open hand slapping was used in the old days).

    When English Boxing was added to Savate (a Tireur got his ass handed out to him by an Englishman in a style vs style match) and the usage of boxing gloves became a standard, chausson kicks who were designed on open hand principles for stabilizing the body became obsolete and even dangerous to execute.
    You can see that in the "Lady Fighter" clip: the boxing gloves give her an unstable balance which could mean that if she would lose her balance, she could ended up with a broken wrist or a twisted knee (of the leg that was hold by the opponent).

    This is the reason that La Boxe Française-Savate was created where it's not legal anymore to get a hold on your opponent or the ropes or putting your hands on the ground to execute a kick.

    This doesn't mean that the chausson kick has disappeard. The kick has made it's transition to the self-defense form of Savate, which a few years ago was encoded and standarized as Savate-Défense. Their the open hand principles are still used, which leads to a stable form and thus supports chausson type of kicks, also slapping the head with open hand is still in practise to prevent handbreaking.
    So look for Savate-Défense books and DVD's and most of them are English dubbed or subtitled.

    Hope that this will help you a little further.
    Last edited by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs; 5/31/2011 4:19am at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  4. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 12:15am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Unfortunately, despite some serious academic work on the origins of French kickboxing in the French language, it's still pretty cloudy and very little has been made available in English. Jean-Francois Loudcher's articles are easily the best, if you can find translations.

    This is about the most comprehensive set of articles on chausson and pre-WW1 savate/boxe Francaise, many taken from early 20th century commentaries.
  5. Mordschlag is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    193

    Posted On:
    6/01/2011 11:41pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs View Post
    I don't know if there are translated manuals outthere.

    Small synopsis:
    Savate kicking has it's origens with the sailors, since a boat's surface is unstable because of the rocking and stacked full of objects, the hands were used to grab hold whilest kicking. This was beneficiary to hitting because the sailorshoes were heavy and could do more damage and it minimized the risk on a broken hand. A broken hand meant that they couldn't work and thus wouldn't get paid (also the reason why open hand slapping was used in the old days).

    When English Boxing was added to Savate (a Tireur got his ass handed out to him by an Englishman in a style vs style match) and the usage of boxing gloves became a standard, chausson kicks who were designed on open hand principles for stabilizing the body became obsolete and even dangerous to execute.
    You can see that in the "Lady Fighter" clip: the boxing gloves give her an unstable balance which could mean that if she would lose her balance, she could ended up with a broken wrist or a twisted knee (of the leg that was hold by the opponent).

    This is the reason that La Boxe Française-Savate was created where it's not legal anymore to get a hold on your opponent or the ropes or putting your hands on the ground to execute a kick.

    This doesn't mean that the chausson kick has disappeard. The kick has made it's transition to the self-defense form of Savate, which a few years ago was encoded and standarized as Savate-Défense. Their the open hand principles are still used, which leads to a stable form and thus supports chausson type of kicks, also slapping the head with open hand is still in practise to prevent handbreaking.
    So look for Savate-Défense books and DVD's and most of them are English dubbed or subtitled.

    Hope that this will help you a little further.
    Ah! Thanks for telling me this. The information you’ve given me has filled in a lot of the blanks in my research and it makes sense based on what I’ve been seeing so far. I will definitely look into Savate-Defense and see what turns up. As a Savateur, have you yourself tried any of the chausson kicks without gloves or anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Unfortunately, despite some serious academic work on the origins of French kickboxing in the French language, it's still pretty cloudy and very little has been made available in English. Jean-Francois Loudcher's articles are easily the best, if you can find translations.

    This is about the most comprehensive set of articles on chausson and pre-WW1 savate/boxe Francaise, many taken from early 20th century commentaries.
    I’ve heard of Jean-François Loudcher but his books aren’t in English yet. I will look into finding his articles and see if those are in English. Thanks for the link and information, I haven’t seen that Savate site before and I’m sure it will have plenty of information to go through. Additionally, I stumbled upon this site a few days ago and it has some interesting information regarding historical Savate (though most of it isn’t in English):
    http://web.tiscalinet.it/canneitalia...armine_eng.htm

    Thanks again to both of you for the info!
  6. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar

    fist first Philosopher

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sanctuary of Pallas Athena (Belgium)
    Posts
    2,658

    Posted On:
    6/02/2011 2:48am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Ah! Thanks for telling me this. The information you’ve given me has filled in a lot of the blanks in my research and it makes sense based on what I’ve been seeing so far. I will definitely look into Savate-Defense and see what turns up. As a Savateur, have you yourself tried any of the chausson kicks without gloves or anything?
    Yes and no, there are several kicks in Savate-Défense that we drill, but since you can only officially start training and get rank in Savate-Défense after you have obtained the rank of Silver Gloves 1 in La Boxe Française-Savate, the Savate-Défense and La Canne are used as warming-up and cool-down.

    The focus of the club is at this time still on La Boxe française-Savate, but we got our two first Initiateurs this year, so I expect a steadily change of focus, until the club will be 50/50 in La Boxe Française-Savate and Savate-Défense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  7. Mordschlag is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    193

    Posted On:
    6/03/2011 1:19pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs View Post
    Yes and no, there are several kicks in Savate-Défense that we drill, but since you can only officially start training and get rank in Savate-Défense after you have obtained the rank of Silver Gloves 1 in La Boxe Française-Savate, the Savate-Défense and La Canne are used as warming-up and cool-down.
    The focus of the club is at this time still on La Boxe française-Savate, but we got our two first Initiateurs this year, so I expect a steadily change of focus, until the club will be 50/50 in La Boxe Française-Savate and Savate-Défense.
    Ah I see. What are your general impressions on those several kicks in Savate Defense that you drill? I’m not terribly initiated in Savate aside from the historical material (for better fencing) I find, so I’d like to see what a true Savateur would say about the Savate Defense material.

    Additionally, I don’t know if you can help me with this but I haven’t been able to get a clear answer so far. Do you know what a Coup de Vache refers to? I’ve seen it described as a “Bronco Kick” but I’m not sure what that means exactly. Sounds like a kick with three limbs touching the ground (two arms and one leg) but that's just my own assumption.
  8. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    6/03/2011 1:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Coup de Vache is literally "strike (kick) of the cow", but because savate evolved kind of organically out of various influences and was still evolving circa 1900, some of the technical vocabulary was basically slang of imprecise meaning. One variation of the coup de vache is a counter to an opponent grabbing your leg (drop down onto both hands and lash out with what is basically a side kick with the other foot at his nearest shin); Robert Barr used the same term to describe a skipping side kick.
  9. Mordschlag is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    193

    Posted On:
    6/03/2011 2:46pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Coup de Vache is literally "strike (kick) of the cow", but because savate evolved kind of organically out of various influences and was still evolving circa 1900, some of the technical vocabulary was basically slang of imprecise meaning. One variation of the coup de vache is a counter to an opponent grabbing your leg (drop down onto both hands and lash out with what is basically a side kick with the other foot at his nearest shin); Robert Barr used the same term to describe a skipping side kick.
    Ah! Strike of the cow! That explains some of the interesting google images that came up when I typed it in. Thanks for that. As something of a curious aside, I was using the google-fu and came across a kick of this manner being used in one of the old cross-style matches of Savate versus English Boxing:


    I forget how many rounds were fought; any how, we were all convulsed with laughter till the last round, in the middle of which Alphonse threw himself back on his hands and shot out with his left foot, the sole of which was planted with terrific force full into Tom’s face.
    http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/20...te-circa-1869/

    Very curious application.
  10. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    6/03/2011 3:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You might also enjoy this Bartitsu.org article on the Victorian English reaction to public savate demonstrations and to the practice of kicking in hand to hand combat generally: http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/20...alhambra-1898/
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.