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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 8:42pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    There are different stages to learning gripping just like anything else in Judo. It's easy to overload people who are just trying to learn how to move reasonably well and do simple throws, let alone add more complex gripping sequences to the mix. So it's no wonder they were at a loss when you "stepped it up". They don't have your experience or repetition with higher level judoka.

    I had the same experience with my students, and they are probably much longer term with me than your college kids. The ability to move and throw has to increase to be able to integrate the move/grip/move/cut/regrip and mix in attacks at the same time.

    Using ashi waza as part of a grip/attack sequence is a critical skill. But if you don't have the ashi waza down pretty well, then it won't work very well.

    Prepare to be frustrated.

    Also, cross gripping the lapel then trying to catch the sleeve is backwards for aiyotsu, but the right order for kenka yotsu. I started off my kids with the cross lapel to sleeve thing, but had to untrain them to catch sleeve first for ai yotsu. Of course, you can go for the near sleeve in kenka yotsu to catch the lapel and get inside grip as well.

    Ben
    Yeh you're right I was having a think about this over the bank holiday weekend and yesterday when I went for beers with my coach we had another chat about this and basically he talked me round to what you were saying. The guys don't really have Judo down yet so gripping is really asking too much.

    I'm slowly starting to sync in my ashiwaza with my gripping and am catching people with De ashi off the grip. Still very much a work in progress, though, and still a lot of people getting kicked when I grip them lol!

    Well I used to try and get the sleeve, but against decent guys there's no way they will let you get there sleeve, you might just get a grip on the lapel, though, and try and work from there. So I got out of the habit of getting the sleeve first, should probably start working on it again against weaker opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    As usual great work judoka_UK....I will add this to my Judo files. I know that Judo has rules regarding grips. In BJJ tournaments this has not happened yet. For instance I like to grab the front of the belt to set up certain takedowns. I was told that in Judo this was not allowed for more than a few seconds. I was also told that you have to remain in an upward stance during competition and not in a low stance or bent at the waist. Not sure if this is true so can anyone enlighten me on this.
    Cheers, Ben has answered your grip rules questions.

    I would say though that these are advanced gripping situations. Even as a Judo dan grade these aren't things I've mastered. I'm just aware of some of the solutions.

    Getting the basic gripping sequences, the basic grip breaks, basic movement patterns and combining movement with gripping and attacking.

    Then you need to drill all these advanced sequences a lot and then practice applying them against skilled opposition in sparring. The same advice and structure you give your students to learn BJJ.
  2. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2011 2:45pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally Posted by BKR
    There are different stages to learning gripping just like anything else in Judo. It's easy to overload people who are just trying to learn how to move reasonably well and do simple throws, let alone add more complex gripping sequences to the mix. So it's no wonder they were at a loss when you "stepped it up". They don't have your experience or repetition with higher level judoka.

    I had the same experience with my students, and they are probably much longer term with me than your college kids. The ability to move and throw has to increase to be able to integrate the move/grip/move/cut/regrip and mix in attacks at the same time.

    Using ashi waza as part of a grip/attack sequence is a critical skill. But if you don't have the ashi waza down pretty well, then it won't work very well.

    Prepare to be frustrated.

    Also, cross gripping the lapel then trying to catch the sleeve is backwards for aiyotsu, but the right order for kenka yotsu. I started off my kids with the cross lapel to sleeve thing, but had to untrain them to catch sleeve first for ai yotsu. Of course, you can go for the near sleeve in kenka yotsu to catch the lapel and get inside grip as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Yeh you're right I was having a think about this over the bank holiday weekend and yesterday when I went for beers with my coach we had another chat about this and basically he talked me round to what you were saying. The guys don't really have Judo down yet so gripping is really asking too much.
    The basics of gripping, yes, basic sleeve control, probably. Just properly setting the hands under stress (randori or shiai) is difficult without a lot of practice. It takes a huge amount of mental and physical discipline to effectively apply gripping strategies seriously and effectively.

    I understand what you are going through, I've been there as a coach as well. You know all this useful stuff, and want to help, but it just tends to overwhelm beginners/novices and up to intermediate level judoka, especially if other basics are not solid.

    We (coaches) and they (students) have to have the patience to take things one or two steps at a time. That will mean they may lose some matches because a slightly more advanced person outgrips them. If the difference in skill level is higher, they will lose anyway more than likely, gripping won't make much if any difference.

    I'm slowly starting to sync in my ashiwaza with my gripping and am catching people with De ashi off the grip. Still very much a work in progress, though, and still a lot of people getting kicked when I grip them lol!
    That is what we've started to work on in the last 2 months. This after working on ashi barai for something like 2 years. I kept introducing it, but their coordination was not there. Now it's working better. Recently we've started working on Kosoto Gari and Gake variations, nidan or otherwise, which also work well with kumi kata sequences. You watch a lot of high level Judo video, kicking is the norm!

    Well I used to try and get the sleeve, but against decent guys there's no way they will let you get there sleeve, you might just get a grip on the lapel, though, and try and work from there. So I got out of the habit of getting the sleeve first, should probably start working on it again against weaker opposition.
    I understand that totally. I have a sequence to go through from simple to complex for getting (trying) to get the sleeve, common sequences that typically happen along the way, defending/countering common attacks, attacking off the grip, etc.

    *Edit* BTW, what Pedro calls "post the shoulder" is very useful, obviously as part of the sequence. You can always go to double lapel from there as well.

    Part of it I learned over the years, part from Kenichiro Agemizu when I was at ISU, then added to it from Pedro's DVD, which was a big help to integrate it together for me.

    I don't claim to be an inventor of any of it by any means, neither am I expert at exectuting the stuff myself. I find it gets to be tiresome, in fact, but for serious competitors, gripping has to be addressed in detail as appropriate for level.

    Ben
    Last edited by BKR; 5/31/2011 2:47pm at . Reason: forgot something
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2011 4:37pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grip fighting is the difference maker in tachiwaza. Developing and mastering a few grip sequences will make you better. Overloading people with crazy situations is not going to make them any better. Most people think that they are goinng to compete against a world champion and want to know every trick in the book. More importantly is to develop some techniques that are beneficial to you.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
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